RRC
Rat Rig Community [Unofficial]yappiest-sapphire
belt ripples artifact
Hi. I have belt ripples artifact (sometimes called salmon skin), in general - vertical pattern which exactly matches belt teeth distance. Printer - no mods, just vcore 3.1 300mm kit. I discovered that it is more strong during Y movement, but also very visible on X. What I found strange - it is stronger on movements from Ymax -> Ymin and Xmax -> Xmin, so on different sides of the model it has different visibility, like that:
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
So:
Xmin -> Xmax: this problem does not exist/invisible
Xmax -> Xmin: visable but not that bad
Ymin -> Ymax, visable, but less visable then Xmax -> Xmin
Ymax -> Ymin: very visible
Printing settings - just default one from Prusa slicer for RatRig VCore 300mm
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
1st photo: best looking side (Xmin-> Xmax), 2st photo: worst looking side (Ymax->Ymin)
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
my shaper graphs
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
I did follow guide to align gauntry, tried to print on concrete floor to exclude table from the equation, reassemble entire frame
Also I noticed that if I move Y by hand, print head viggles left and right a tiny bit (maybe by 1mm or so)
but otherwise movement seems to be nice and smooth
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ptegler•329d ago
either belts too tight or bad bearings in one of your linear rail carriages
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
Hmm, bad linear rails is unexpected option, how would I test? By hand they seems to move nice and smooth(without gauntly attached)
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ptegler•329d ago
belt tension can rack the carriages on the rails, causing them to 'stick' a little here and there. any uneven drag would cause print artifacts
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
Theory is cool, thought it does not explain how to fix… I guess I will start with lower belt tension
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ptegler•329d ago
just went back and looked at your pics...since that surface ripple 'continues' the whole way along the side...that's a belt tension match issue compared to X axis. which is too loose or too tight.... can't guess.
you'll notice the spacing appears to match the cogging of the pulley belt teeth
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yappiest-sapphire•329d ago
hm, I tried to lower belt tension ,belt ripples are a lot less visible (I still can see it under harsh light), but Y shaper graph looks quite noisy, suggested accel is very low
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Plynix•328d ago
I still have this issue but lowering the tension made it better I have the suggestion that you make sure that you have good squareness that I probability prob also my problem bc I have different tension so binding appears or so. Also my right motor mount makes weird noises
And maybe lube the rails
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ptegler•328d ago
interesting that X accel suggestion is lower than Y...it's usually the other way around. Plus that Y graph doesn't look so hot. (second hump)
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Plynix•328d ago
Yeah that’s it’s dragging a lot
Eh doesn’t seem like that with the recommended algorithm?
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
Ehh, I rebuilt frame twice... Did not help much. (I had ripples before and after)
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Plynix•328d ago
Without the belt everything moves smooth right ?
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
Yep
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Plynix•328d ago
Hmm
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
And I did follow guide to align gauntry (in which you realign rails)
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Plynix•328d ago
And your rails are all lubed ?
Maybe we both got bad bearings
When moving the y axis does your toolhead like move abit?
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
yep
yes, it moves by ~0.5mm left and right, If I move it really slowly, but I guess that is normal?
So belt tension did not really "fix" it for you too, that is weird...
I ordered FMMM mod, motor decouple mod, toothed idlers for front of xy-joint and new belt and new pulleys will see if it would help. But delivery would take 1-2 months xD
Maybe everybody have it, and do not see a problem in it? I previously had totally different printer (HEVO), which was used to print parts of that printer, and I can see same wavy pattern, despite the fact that it used thinner belt, and rods instead of rails.
@Helge Keck did you ever have such artefacts?
HK
Helge Keck•328d ago
try another speed
this look slike classic gt2 belt artefacts
try also too loosen your bekts a bit
retune input shaper
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
But why is it direction dependent?
Yep, did it, check last graphs
Then now I ask classical question, if 140mm/s creates so bad artifacts, why’s is it in default config😂
HK
Helge Keck•328d ago
there are so many factors that play a role, no profile can catch all of them
every printer has a speed and acceleration goldilock zone
this depends also heavily on your choosed stepper driuver profile
you need to find the speed goldilock zone
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
Understandable, so - the fact that intensity of artifact changes with direction does not necessarily mean bad mechanics, it could be just bad speed?
HK
Helge Keck•328d ago
you can use the tuning tower command from klipper to test this easily
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
Will try, thanks.
Do you have some paper in reach which describes it? Just curiosity, as I heard about it, but can’t google.
HK
Helge Keck•328d ago
can you bing?
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
Got it, no more questions. Thanks for reply 8)
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
Did you read it? (Just found it, and that guide seems to be godsend, will follow it and update status on weekends) https://ellis3dp.com/Print-Tuning-Guide/articles/troubleshooting/vfas.html#vfas-with-2mm-spacing
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Helge Keck•328d ago
this is a well known guide
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Plynix•328d ago
Nope
Didn’t really searched for it
But I thing when moving the y the toolhead jitters and makes those waves
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Plynix•328d ago
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Plynix•328d ago
i now after folling the guide got those
i have this 125hz peak
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yappiest-sapphire•328d ago
That’s… interesting, maybe you just forgot to tight something?
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Plynix•327d ago
Don’t think so
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Plynix•327d ago
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Plynix•327d ago
That’s how my prints look
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yappiest-sapphire•327d ago
One if them looks quite fine
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old-apricot•327d ago
I do believe my prints looks the same, so it seems quite common issue. I'm curious can it be from belts teeths against bearings pulleys on x gantry
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Plynix•326d ago
Any ideas
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yappiest-sapphire•326d ago
Nope, my current plan is to stick with low belt tension(though it means very low accel) and wait for parts for FFFM mod, toothed idlers and motors decoupler mod, hope it would help😅
I tried speed calibration, but it does not got worse at higher speeds
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yappiest-sapphire•326d ago
Bottom is 100mm/s, middlet 150mm/s, top 200mm/s
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ptegler•326d ago
doesn't look like the ripples are there at the bottom section (100mm/s?) ripples start around 1/4 of the way up from the bottom
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yappiest-sapphire•326d ago
There are a lot less visible, but unfortunately on the opposite side of the tower it looks opposite, more visible at 100mm/a and less visible at 150mm/s +
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yappiest-sapphire•326d ago
Not best photo, so just trust me😅
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Helge Keck•326d ago
i highly suggest to use marcs linear movement analysis to find out your speed goldilock zones
HK
Helge Keck•326d ago
GitHub
GitHub - worksasintended/klipper_linear_movement_analysis
Contribute to worksasintended/klipper_linear_movement_analysis development by creating an account on GitHub.
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yappiest-sapphire•325d ago
Oh, there is such thing…
Is there guide how to read this graphs? README seems to tell only how to generate them, and only tiny bit about their meaning.
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yappiest-sapphire•323d ago
Okay, so, I run linear movement analysis, how to read it? X:
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yappiest-sapphire•323d ago
Y:
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yappiest-sapphire•323d ago
A:
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yappiest-sapphire•323d ago
B:
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correct-apricot•322d ago
first one should look like the one posted on github, forth one is telling you at which speed you have the lowest vibration. ( in your case, 140-160 it is the best speed)
Try this
clean and lube the linear rails
set stealthchop_threshold to 999999 or 0 (run graphs after each setting and see which one works better)
Set x and y motor current to 1.4 or 1.8 and run graphs
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1112836488061788300
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yappiest-sapphire•322d ago
Thanks for suggestions
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correct-apricot•322d ago
motors to that v only if you have cooled steppers, if not do 1/1.4
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Plynix•313d ago
And did you guys got it fixed ?
Ok it seems to be alinging pretty whell with the belt
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Plynix•313d ago
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Plynix•313d ago
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DemetriKarakashev•310d ago
Okay so I had a different problem and I managed to fix these along the way.
My issue was that the belt was touching the top side of the pulley, this happened because at some point the pulley came loose from the motor and probably moved there.
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yappiest-sapphire•308d ago
I received parts for FMMM and motor decoupler, need some time to install that, probably in weekend
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Plynix•306d ago
nice tell me how you get along
any news?
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yappiest-sapphire•305d ago
WIP, need some time, have only toothed idlers installed and motor decoupler assembly done, need to finish installing of FMMM mode and route belt
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yappiest-sapphire•305d ago
Update, mods are installed.
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ugly-tan•303d ago
how about the mod?
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yappiest-sapphire•303d ago
Struggling to make my right belt (lower one) stop moving up and down on motor pulley… when gantry is moved forward it goes down, when front - up.
Moving left and right has the same effect, I already reassembled right motor cage twice, and visually checked for all shims be in place
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Gizzle•300d ago
Looking forward to see your results. Facing the exact same issues. Higher print speeds on the external perimeters reduced the issues, but not solved them. Even though I'm using input shape I'm facing some more pronounced artifacts which seems like ghosting, but align with the belt pattern
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Plynix•289d ago
so i will try reaplcing the belt aswell as the bearings
Ok how did it behave any fix?
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yappiest-sapphire•289d ago
Nah, mods did not help at all, belt replacements- did not test yet (I have done mods and belt replacement separately)
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Plynix•289d ago
Ugh i might rebuild it but now square
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Gizzle•289d ago
I don't think the frame has anything to do with the issue
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Plynix•289d ago
The belt might nut nur perfectly in the middle maybe hits a side of the motor mount
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Gizzle•289d ago
I thought that too, that's why I tried to listen at the motor mounts during movements. In my case there was no noise which could indicate that the belt is rubbing
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absent-sapphire•286d ago
did u checked the belt tensions? if it is to tight it can cause a sort of ripple too. Saw that on a Voron from a friend of mine.
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Gizzle•285d ago
Are there any reference values regarding the frequency or so?
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correct-apricot•285d ago
Sort out the "B" graph, that is the problem
switch motor pulleys and see if B looks good and A bad
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absent-sapphire•285d ago
U can calculate it with math
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Plynix•285d ago
Maybe this is making the issue it’s like moving up and down
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absent-sapphire•285d ago
That moving is not intended. U should check where it. Ones from. Maybe a crooked idler bolt.
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ptegler•285d ago
that top belt is toast! it's all ripped up along the top edge. It's been riding on the edge of the idler or scraping your corner printed parts. The only thing that makes a belt move up/down is miss alignment of two pulleys along the belt path...either not aligned on the same plane, or one idler/pulley is not on the exact same axis as the adjacent one.
the damage to the belt alone could cause the 'rise fall' as you note, as one edge is longer than the other now (belt is no longer straight. If laid out on a table, you'd see a 'dip' in the line as the belt has been stretched along one edge only
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Plynix•285d ago
Yeah I will change it but it can’t make those sinusoidal motions
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yappiest-sapphire•277d ago
Okay, update after vocation - swapping the belt and doing fmmm and decoupler mode gave some results, not this is how four sides looks like
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yappiest-sapphire•277d ago
I would say, some new artifact appeared - unaligned horizontal waves, but aligned one became less prominent
Oh yea - swapping out the belt seems to had most noticeable effect (old one - original from ratrig, does not have noticeable problems, new one - ordered from triangle labs, they state - it is original gates 2gt belt)
I am happy with results, I would say
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Plynix•277d ago
I did change the belt from ratrig to gates belts made only an minor change but I can see these marks any idea what I could be
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Plynix•277d ago
Se the line on the belt maybe I will change the bearing
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ptegler•277d ago
are ALL the bearings in that stack rotating freely? those lines line up perfectly with the three bearings stack. The bottom of that middle bearing looks shinier than the rest which is a bit odd. you'd think they'd all be the same
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Plynix•277d ago
When I change the belt it pressed against then with a screw inside and they where freely to rotate
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ptegler•277d ago
Those lines are simply where the belt is not in pressure contact with a bearing surface right at the bearing separation points. It is not common, but should not be an issue. Do/can you wipe the lines away (lightly clean the belt with a link free cloth NOT any chemicals)
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harsh-harlequin•235d ago
Hello. I tried to install it but it stayed like this for 1 hour. I am using raspberry pi3b+. I don't use ratos.
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extended-salmon•234d ago
I had this problem on a printer once too. i used aftermarket gates belts on which were not what came with the printer originally - only after also switching out the pulleys and idelers to original gates ones the problem was fixed. They have a slightly different tooth shape and i blame the combo of the gates belt with a non gates toothed gear.
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DanO•158d ago
@maba_kalox ever fix this?
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Gizzle•158d ago
Had the same issue and it may seem I have fixed it: throw the shitty bearings and belts out. Ratrig uses so bad quality parts in this case
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DanO•158d ago
@gizzle13 the linear rail carriages also or just the idlers?
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Gizzle•158d ago
Rail and Idler bearings for fushi bearings
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DanO•158d ago
Thanks. Will try it.
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pasha4ur•44d ago
Hello
Did you solve this problem?
I have same on my virin trident https://reprap.org/forum/read.php?397,894253,894538#msg-894538 Other people can't solve it on other printers
What is the cause of magical random ripples on the Core XY printer?
Hello Help me please. I have voron trident like printer. My 1st custom assembly. CONFIGURATION • 4040 (v-slot) and 2040 (t-slot) frame with corners and corner outer plates; • RDBB 500mm rails (12mm on X axis); • powge pulleys and idlers, 6mm gates belts (tensioned at about115-120 Hz), fushi bearing
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pasha4ur•44d ago
Hello
Any success?
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Plynix•44d ago
Im currently changing bearings
Until now not really
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DanO•44d ago
Yes, much better. However there were multiple things i tried to get there. Changing my XY idlers to aluminum, replacing the bearings, and loosening the belts.
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Gizzle•43d ago
How loose and how did you measure it?
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DanO•43d ago
Very loose and tightened only a bit till graph somewhat resembled the example. Then didn’t try too hard to make it better since it printed better than when my graphs looked good but belts too tight.
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pasha4ur•25d ago
Hello
What bearings did you buy?
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DanO•25d ago
Fushi Abec 7
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Gizzle•25d ago
I found a way to reduce the artifacts for me. The solution was more speed. Normal print speeds are too slow for the vcore
Want results from more Discord servers?
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