it's worth noting what we're discussing here is not Silk.NET 3.0. This is SilkX, a completely differ

it's worth noting what we're discussing here is not Silk.NET 3.0. This is SilkX, a completely different library. there is still room for another contributor to create a different library to propose that it gets blessed as 3.0

AAqua i can't think of a situation where someone would reasonably need to mix and matc...

khitiara•8/4/23, 8:44 PM

ive mixed arrays and ref at the same time in calls a ton actually, albeit not mixing safe and unsafe, mixing ref and span is useful a ton actually

MMaxine you guys know that if there is sufficient IL in a method the JIT will just refus...

Kai•8/4/23, 8:45 PM

Idk if this is up to date btw, but technically AggressiveInlining is guaranteed for top-level inlines so function A calling function B with AggressiveInlining is guaranteed, but then anything beyond is not, just a strong hint.
And then if it's huge huge you can just make it multiple functions, which will the also help with JIT not perishing when tracking variables and that.

Kai•8/4/23, 8:45 PM

but really if those functions have locals and things like that you're probably doing something wrong with AggressiveInlining....

PerkseyOP•8/4/23, 8:45 PM

it's not guaranteed, there are still limits but there's just a lot of things that relax those limits now.

PerkseyOP•8/4/23, 8:45 PM

oh right

PerkseyOP•8/4/23, 8:46 PM

yeah just read your whole comment

PerkseyOP•8/4/23, 8:46 PM

I WITHDRAW MY REMARK

Volte•8/4/23, 8:47 PM

Deleted User#0000

//   However, there are some caveats to this:
// - We use local functions in addition to the generic typeof(T) == typeof(whatever) pattern to work around some
//   unfortunate inlining issues in platforms older that .NET 5, where the inliner was going over budget despite
//   aggressively inlined functions supposedly being exempt from budgeting.
//   See also: https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/38106

//   However, there are some caveats to this:
// - We use local functions in addition to the generic typeof(T) == typeof(whatever) pattern to work around some
//   unfortunate inlining issues in platforms older that .NET 5, where the inliner was going over budget despite
//   aggressively inlined functions supposedly being exempt from budgeting.
//   See also: https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/38106

note that on net5 this is only solved for top-level inlines.

Original Message

Click here

Quoted by kaijellinghaus#0000

MMaxine keep as-is, unsafe everything?

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:47 PM

not quite
keep unsafe, but have safe overloads as well
aka taking arrays
and perhaps a span as well, although as spans can be converted to pointers very easily i wouldn't say that span is a high priority - i don't see many people using spans (myself included, never seen the point of them)
if you remove the mix and matching, even with spans, you'd have a max of 3 overloads, and as i said before, i'm fairly confident 99% of people will only ever use the fully safe overloads
and having it obvious what they do will really help development and UX
i can say that as a beginner if I saw a

Ptr<T>

Ptr<T>

type instead of an array, I would be very confused
even now I would question why it is using a custom type instead of pure unsafe or safe
on a personal level, I just think

Ptr<T>

Ptr<T>

causes more problems than it solves
i may be missing something here, so this is just a personal opinion on what i've seen so far

PerkseyOP•8/4/23, 8:47 PM

this is my point, this is literally Silk.NET 1.X

Maxine•8/4/23, 8:48 PM

arrays blow, we'd be constantly marshalling and allocating stuff

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:48 PM

just internally convert it to a pointer?

Kai•8/4/23, 8:48 PM

tbh I'm not against having TerraFX style functions with raw ptr + the typed ptrs

AAqua just internally convert it to a pointer?

Maxine•8/4/23, 8:48 PM

only works one way

Kai•8/4/23, 8:48 PM

I don't see why not + it provides compat with external libs that work with ptrs

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:49 PM

void glDoStuff<T>(T[] myArray) where T : unmanaged {
  fixed (void* arrPtr = myArray)
    glDoStuff((nuint) myArray.Length, arrPtr);
}

void glDoStuff<T>(T[] myArray) where T : unmanaged {
  fixed (void* arrPtr = myArray)
    glDoStuff((nuint) myArray.Length, arrPtr);
}

Volte•8/4/23, 8:49 PM

Deleted User#0000

I just submitted repro code for an issue regarding AggressiveInlining that doesn't even contain a single AggressiveInlining

Original Message

Click here

Quoted by kaijellinghaus#0000

Kai•8/4/23, 8:49 PM

more inlining docs

AAqua ```cs void glDoStuff<T>(T[] myArray) where T : unmanaged { fixed (void* arrPtr...

Kai•8/4/23, 8:49 PM

but what do we do for char**

Kai•8/4/23, 8:49 PM

const char**const char** to be specific

Kai•8/4/23, 8:50 PM

we can't do T[][] that's just not correct

Maxine•8/4/23, 8:50 PM

that would be ref T[]?

Kai•8/4/23, 8:50 PM

and T*[]T*[] helps with nothing

Kai•8/4/23, 8:50 PM

and ROSpan<Span<T>>ROSpan<Span<T>> is just not valid

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:50 PM

no - and that will potentially require some allocation
but again, very easy for the user
and the performance hit that will be encountered is really not enough to matter

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:51 PM

i created a very fast alloc + buffer copy system in pie and you can't tell the difference between using that system and just sending the data over raw in tests

PerkseyOP•8/4/23, 8:52 PM

for reference, these were the overloads in 1.9:
https://github.com/dotnet/Silk.NET/blob/v1.9.0/src/Vulkan/Silk.NET.Vulkan/Vk.gen.cs
https://github.com/dotnet/Silk.NET/blob/v1.9.0/src/OpenGL/Silk.NET.OpenGL/GL.gen.cs

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:52 PM

the thing is, with any safe context, you will always lose some performance to make it clean
if you wanted raw performance, don't use C#, simple as

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:52 PM

the garbage collector gives far more of a performance hit than a little bit of allocation here and there

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:53 PM

to make something safe, there is always some compromise

Kai•8/4/23, 8:54 PM

Is C# the best language to do this? Maybe not. But there's very good reason you and everyone else here does it anyways....
And the GC hurting performance more then a little bit of allocation is just wrong. The whole reason the GC may hurt performance is because of those allocations

Kai•8/4/23, 8:54 PM

It's well established that with performance and allocation minded code C# can be some of the fastest code around

Kai•8/4/23, 8:54 PM

see ASP.NET Core

Maxine•8/4/23, 8:54 PM

if what you want are very high level bindings can't cppsharp do that

Kai•8/4/23, 8:55 PM

eeeeh

Kai•8/4/23, 8:55 PM

I mean that's what TerraFX does, provide 100% unsafe raw methods

KKai Is C# the best language to do this? Maybe not. But there's very good reason you ...

Aqua•8/4/23, 8:55 PM

personally the main reason I use C# is because I hate C++ headers and rust sucks for gamedev
that is literally the only reason
my opinion of C# as a language has gone way down the drain, I wish I did not have to use it
however that's not to say it doesn't have its merits, and clean and understandable code is one major benefit of the language, no need for unsafe, no need for weird types, just give something an array and it works