V-minion z-wobble or banding

Hi all, I built a v-minion full kit from ratrig, everything was ok but when I tested it I found some z-wobble/banding, artifacts in Z axe (in my opinion). After that I try a lot of things, I try to give my best aligning the leadscrew with the pom nut and motor but the problem was still there, I replaced everything, the leadscrew, the coupler (spider and other types), even the stepper motor and the linear rail. I changed the pillow block printed part for another one... The last thing I'm thinking about is about a skew error, something that is not 100% squared in the main frame, so I'm thinking about re-done everything again, even print all parts again. In the other hand I have some mods that I've found here and around. Like double linear rail in Z with a new printed part instead of the one that I have that is metallic. I also saw a mod with a motor with leadscrew integrated like voron or prusa. I also see one that is using an oldham coupler instead of the pom t-nut. Could you help me with this problem? thanks a lot. PD: Attached the evolution of several changes and improvements.
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99 Replies
migferlab
migferlabβ€’14mo ago
The last prints that I tried to test it. I tried with different layer height and the pattern is always the same
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StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’13mo ago
Hello. Have you been able to gain some progress here? Cause I have absolutely same issue.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’13mo ago
Hi, I din't have enough time to improve it but I'm rebuilding the machine entirely, with new printed parts in ASA, when I rebuild it completely I will share the status of the problem... If it is still there I would try with some mod for Z axis, like oldham, wobblex, betled Z or dual linear rail... let's see
stormy-gold
stormy-goldβ€’13mo ago
Hi, I've fixed it. Centering the Z-screw rod solved wobble
migferlab
migferlabβ€’13mo ago
Yes, I've tried that a lot of times, and give my best trying to find the perfect alignment but it didn't work
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’13mo ago
And have you been able to reassemble the machine already? I am thinking about it during this weekend.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’13mo ago
I'm trying to do it during this week, I hope to finish it this weekend as well. I already have all the printed parts in ASA ready to be used in the new build. I also have a oldham coupler and wobbleX 8mm here if they are necessary using a mod. Let's see
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’13mo ago
I have Oldham already fitted but it have no effect. With or without it's still there.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’13mo ago
Good to know... dissapointing but good to know πŸ˜… . have you installed this mod? https://www.printables.com/model/465831-ratrig-v-minion-z-decoupler-resolves-z-banding-z-w
Printables.com
RatRig V-Minion Z decoupler (resolves Z Banding / Z Wobble) by Brun...
Adopted to use RatRig Z decoupler to resolve Z wobble | Download free 3D printable STL models
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’13mo ago
Yes, that's exact mod i used. I doublechecked the distance extension of 17mm with model too. Tried to print my own motor holder and pillow. No change. Sliding Oldham left to right does not help too. Fooling around with x gantry angle to frame eather. I have three leadscrews, bunch of couplers and secondary motor. I am just missing something. I also tried to refix the linear guides, running around the machine with caliper. I think there will be something ridiculously obvious I am missing. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜­
migferlab
migferlabβ€’13mo ago
It sounds familiar to me πŸ₯² Good luck !! I hope I can start work with it today...
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’13mo ago
Hello my friend. Have you resolved it yet? I think I found it on my side.
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StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’13mo ago
At first i got rid just the Y axis waves by realigning the frame. i bouth at the hobbystore calibrated 90Β° angle and found that vertical profile was not properly aligned with the horizontal. I aligned it and after that i tried to align the decoupler on X gantry left and right by puting out bimetal decoupler and just screwd to the chasis the lead screw nut so it was rigid. by that i was able to get stright line from top to bottom and motor. with that in mind i started to fool around with the calibrated angle around the Z motor and figured out (i still dont understand why) that z motor holder - printed part is not in 90Β° with the linear rails. so i ended up with putting 0,3mm shim bellow low screw on that and by that get proper 90Β°angle. and again with calipers measure axact distance of the leadscrew to linear rail. i will try to put some pictures together. its worth of a million words πŸ˜„
wise-white
wise-whiteβ€’12mo ago
I also have the Oldham mod on my Minion and suddenly had a strong Z-wobble. I then removed the ball bearing at the top and the problem went away immediately
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StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
i am having good results even with the bearing. but the sound of it sometimes is superanoying. πŸ˜„ i think i will remove it.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’12mo ago
It sounds very familiar to me XD, I mean, I tried to do all those checks in my side but nothing worked. I'm rebuilding it right now, I'm with EVA 3.0.2 right now, but the rest of the structure is ready. I also printed my own parts in ASA (3DO ratrig color). Let's see if something is better in my side... Thanks for your time to respond here, for sure, If I'm still having problems I will do everything you suggested. Thanks very much. It's looks very well, maybe the ball bearing on the top was to tight or it does not moving properly?
wise-white
wise-whiteβ€’12mo ago
Not sure but now everything is fine without it 😊
migferlab
migferlabβ€’12mo ago
I'm very happy to hear this, I hope to have the same results XD
wise-white
wise-whiteβ€’12mo ago
I hope it too let us know
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’12mo ago
Having this issue aswell 😐tried printing some aligners and now doing a test print.
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’12mo ago
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StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
And what from the above statements from me or @migferlab or @proof84 you already tested?
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’12mo ago
I have tried printing the alignment tools for the leadscrew, and i have swapped out the crappy coupler that comes with the kit to a solid one. I wanna try the Z decoupler mod but i cant print anything other than PLA myself yet.
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’12mo ago
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Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’12mo ago
This is with the bottom of the coupler sitting flat, it is crooked.
other-emerald
other-emeraldβ€’12mo ago
Hi there z wobble people, I am here to join the club. Waiting on a new leadscrew atm. I also have: -re-squared the frame -re-tensioned the belts -switched to a solid coupler -played around with alignment Z-wobble is still present.... However, could any of you measure a calibration cube to see if there is a difference between X and Y side? Because that's my main issue, got different dimensions, really annoying.
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
How different dimensions?
other-emerald
other-emeraldβ€’12mo ago
Measuring a cube (or hexagon or cylinder or whatever) 30x30x30mm X direction is ~0.15mm shorter than the Y direction.
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
I dont think its relative to the z-wobble. rather then stepper config or something like that. z obble will give you waves in leadscrew lenght (4mm). and if its shorter maybe you are loosing steps.
other-emerald
other-emeraldβ€’12mo ago
I do have Z wobble and the lines at roughly 4mm intervals, it was actually you who suggested that my inaccuracy problem could be because the lead screw skews the prints. But I am not sure if there might be something else to it that's why I asked if any of you could check your dimensions, so I can see if it is z wobble related or not.
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
i did not printed calibration cube, but from samples around here i have deviation about 0,02mm X to Y. if that helps πŸ˜‰ just thinking about it again, and it could have effect. if the leadscrew is that bad that it travels 0,15mm in the layers. if you could measure dimensions in lets say 0, 2 and 4mm in height (z axis) it will give you idea. like for example if its -0,15mm at begining of wave (0mm), then 0mm in middle of wave (2mm) and +0,15mm at the end of the wave (4mm). nevermind. i was just thinking out loud. it will be the same. because each side will be moved. hmm, but that it could have effect still applies. πŸ˜„ did you tried to measure thickness of the wall?
harsh-harlequin
harsh-harlequinβ€’12mo ago
I've solved my z wobble but I had to compromise z height. Replaced my lead screw with an ldo branded lead screw from filastruder. They did not have 250mm length but only 230mm. Then I had to tighten the antibacklash screw to make it a little more snug and so far it has fixed it.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’12mo ago
I've just rebuild my printer, with new printed parts, it's in stock version yet... and the z-wobble is still there, I don't know if I am a little bit clumsy aligning the screw and everything or if i don't know how antibacklash works or what happens. I will try to give my best with this but I think I'm going to test some mods or even a motor with a leadscrew. Well, after some adjustment this morning I've printed other test and it's almost gone, the best result I've got so far. Even if I use a light on top of the cilinder that I'm printing the pattern is very difficult to be appreciated
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
good to hear.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’12mo ago
But it's too weird because to me eyes the leadscrew looks like it's not 100% perpendicular XD I will try to do more tests
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’12mo ago
well i see small possition changes at top too but the z-wobble is not there. the issue will be in the general position of the center of the z motor to center of the z nut and overall skew of the alu profiles πŸ˜‰ thats what i got as impression out of it.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’12mo ago
Yes, I agree. With this Z design it's easy to introduce a little deviation, even if the z nut anti-backlash is not properly aligned in X/Y axes the leadscrew can be misaligned, also the screw in the anti-backlash nut to apply some tension. The coupler should be totally horizontal as well. And the overall skew as you said, for sure.
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’12mo ago
I am not sure if this has been subject of discussion here but left - before and right - with wobbleX
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Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’12mo ago
Before, the leadscrew was pretty much as parallel as possible...
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
looks very well, I have a wobbleX 8 here, what mod have you installed?
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
Printables.com
WobbleX WS8 Coupling by Ivah Sukhikh | Download free STL model | Pr...
This is a coupler for the Z axis based on WobbleX for an 8mm screw. | Download free 3D printable STL models
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
That's incorrect usage. I have my own mod, I'll upload it to printables when I get to it...
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
https://www.printables.com/model/675516-v-minion-wobblex-adapter Here. But You will need TR8x4 POM nut and also most likely to reprint extrusion cap
Printables.com
V-Minion - WobbleX adapter by Ferfi | Download free STL model | Pri...
Simple piece to adapt minion to WobbleX | Download free 3D printable STL models
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
Im just gonna do belted Z 😬
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
You can't go wrong with belted. But it is more work and iirc more expensive and more printing as well. But the result is guaranteed.
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
Im getting the parts printed in PC-CF so it will already be kinda expensive, the PETG are really bad. The most annoying part is extracting all the files from the .step files to get them to .stl πŸ˜‚
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
I think I have a TR8x4 POM nut somewhere... I will take a look
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
Is wobble x still only from aliexpress?
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
Yes. Or you could source the magnets and needle rollers (most likely from AE as well) and print the middle piece as well.
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
That kinda makes it a poor solution :/ wait a month for a tiny little device.
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
I mean... Belted is the same case. You'll have to source at least the 288mm(?) belt most likely from Ali as well Ali is usually two weeks to Europe for me
vicious-gold
vicious-goldβ€’11mo ago
controler fan speed
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
That is true but its a more major overhaul so it is more justified imho, Wobble X you should be able to just order from Amazon as a quick fix.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
I will install it, the 3060 top end cap with a bearing... the bearing should be fixed to the part? I mean, it is tight in the bearing place or not?
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
I had to press it in using pliers, hands were not enough. Best way might be to cut it so you print only the region with diameter and see for yourself... Depends on material, seam quality, flow multiplier calibration etc.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
Thanks, I only want to know if it is designed to fit tight or not, because the part that I printed is not tight at all If I flip the part the bearing falls
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
It was tight for me... I'd dab a drop of glue there to make sure in that case
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
I've installed the mod and everything looks great for the moment
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Send some pictures.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
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Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
Well.. Is it possible I have shorter cable holder? πŸ˜€
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
The filament used to test it was a gift from a store in the last printer party here in Spain. I didn’t calibrate it properly, I was using another pla profile. The black piece for the sleeved cables do you mean? Yes it should be easy to modify
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
If it fits then it is fine but from the photos it looks like an uncomfortable clearance
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
Yes, you’re right I remember that I had to move to the right the support, the x endcap I will find a short one or I will modify the original one
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
"modify" as in hot knife machining πŸ˜€
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
looks good. so if you could summarize, what you had to do apart of that mod? i have oldham decoupler which is prety good too, but you end with 17mm extended leadscrew from its original position, which i dont like. and only other option is belted. πŸ˜„
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
well, there is other mod for oldham decoupler, it changes more parts than wobbleX mod, you have to print the motor cage, and more parts. Is this mod: https://www.printables.com/model/465831-ratrig-v-minion-z-decoupler-resolves-z-banding-z-w
Printables.com
RatRig V-Minion Z decoupler (resolves Z Banding / Z Wobble) by Brun...
Adopted to use RatRig Z decoupler to resolve Z wobble | Download free 3D printable STL models
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
I printed the wobbleX mod from Ferfi, the link is some messages above, and I only had to change the anti backslash nut for the wobbleX and t8x4 screw nut and the top endcap with the bearing And the leadscrew has to be "rised" a few millimeters to reach the top bearing And you have to align properly the entire Z elements Not much more to be honest
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
I think you got me wrong. That Oldham decoupler mod I have on my minion for weeks already, but I am asking if you could say what you had to do with the wobble. Like what all the changes you had to make to get wobble in place and working. I don't like Oldham because it's 17mm offset. It's working great bud I like things tidy so iam fooling around with thought with wobble or even belted mod.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’11mo ago
I’ve installed the Ferfi’s mod
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
Calibrate and use quality filament and do another test to show πŸ‘Œ
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
Just an update - the wobbleX is not the wunderwaffe I hoped for... Ill disassemble and clean the screw today, hopefully it will help...
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Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
The ripples appeared after about 10-20 hours of printing...
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Did you tried different filament? I found some unprintable. Like spectrum white came totally wet. Polymaker white doesn't make out with my speeds and nebula is quite ok. Spectrum in colors are great, nebula too but devildesign is my best choice since they are porforming great whatever I want from them. Iam testing now filament pm as its local manufacturer and it was making official filaments for prusa before prusa built its own filament factory. But white is always the worst. I like it much too, but it's realy hard to get one which is working good. I have Oldham mod and it's not as good as I thought too. It will give you some room to play but main thing is to realy align leadscrew to rail. Y axis on the z motor. X axis on the wobblex/Oldham and to make whole frame from profales square or exact 90deg. What helped me most is aligning the frame with calibrated angle, then align x gantry with cans and then fool around with the Oldham and z motor. I still have little wobbling on my screw, but doest apply to the print. πŸ˜‰
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
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Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
one better photo, hopefully it is more noticeable. hopefully it is just a problem with screw aligment.
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Yes it is.
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
Interesting....
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Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
All pins are completely rusted
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Wtf?
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
I guess lube them while you can lol
Tokehgekko
Tokehgekkoβ€’11mo ago
For sure going beltes after seeing this πŸ˜”
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Well, I don't see such an issue with Oldham mod. πŸ˜‰
loczek
loczekβ€’11mo ago
I've dried this mod, and so far no z wobble The only thing now is the spider couple can't detach if the nozzle touches the bed to prevent breaking the bed/nozzle
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
The Z axis detaches at the wobbleX, so you will still not crash into bed Yea it worked. I have stainless pins on the way.
loczek
loczekβ€’11mo ago
Normally with just the spider coupler the lead screw would go up after nozzle hitting bed. But with z wobble mos there is a F688ZZ Ball Bearing that won't let it go up
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
1. Place a finger on the nozzle 2. Pull up with moderate force X axis is not rigidly constrained to z axis, it is held only by gravity
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Don't turn on the heater if you will use fingers on nozzle. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
loczek
loczekβ€’11mo ago
@ferfi4004 I am talking about this mod: https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1153699551652352150/1187488610031771800 Don't think I can pull it up
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’11mo ago
(optional) πŸ˜„
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
Yes that's Oldham mod I have and it's just about what type of coupler you have. The bearing up there is not so rigid that it will stuck there. And I am not using the bearing there anyways. But I also don't use spider coupler. πŸ˜‚ With wobblex you have detaching place at the wobble so it's little bit more safe.
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
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loczek
loczekβ€’11mo ago
What coupler is that?
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
this type. i have it from our czech supplier but its the same. https://www.amazon.de/-/en/SUOFEILAIMU-MI-Coupler-Coupling-Flexible-Diameter/dp/B095K2J8RM
SUOFEILAIMU-MI Coupler 1 Piece 5 x 8 mm for CNC Engine Jaw Shaft Co...
For CNC engine. Elastic coupling. OD 19x25mm. 3/4/5/6 / 6.35/7/8 / 10 mm. Package includes: 1 x coupling
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
two screws for each joint
loczek
loczekβ€’11mo ago
Thx But it looks like it won't separate if nozzle touches bed
StrashaCZ
StrashaCZβ€’11mo ago
No it does not. Well unless you will use just one screw out of those two for motor side. But i don't think it's that much needed. In this case I like the wobblex version because it will detach there.
migferlab
migferlabβ€’7mo ago
Sorry, I'm very very late on my response. I've used the printer a few times, not too much, but everything works fine now, well not perfect for sure because I didn't expend so much time in calibrations... but much much better than before.
Ferfi
Ferfiβ€’7mo ago
This has to be some sort of a record for a thread to be marked as "resolved" after literally half a year lol
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