AI Act protest germany

France and Germany are messing up the AI act, see https://discord.com/channels/1100491867675709580/1173441626388058122. We should try to do something about this.

@Tassilo wants to do a protest near Karlsruhe and has a group of rationalists who would be willing to join.

What needs to happen

Write press release
Think of signs / ask
Pick best location / time (maybe Heidelberg because that's where the open source AI startup Aleph Alpha is, or maybe Strasbourg / Brussels would be better)

Discord

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moderate-tomato•11/13/23, 2:03 PM

Before the AI Safety Summit, there was an international survey of people’s attitudes towards AI safety. Includes both France and Germany.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/international-survey-of-public-opinion-on-ai-safety

GOV.UK

International survey of public opinion on AI safety

A new survey of public opinion in nine countries shows widespread support for AI safety testing.

moderate-tomato•11/13/23, 2:03 PM

Germany

moderate-tomato•11/13/23, 2:05 PM

France

moderate-tomato•11/13/23, 2:11 PM

Important to highlight the difference between what people want (more regulation) and what tech lobbyists want (zero regulations or ‘self-regulation’)

hurt-tomatoOP•11/13/23, 3:28 PM

Germany is being pressured by its own leading AI company Aleph Alpha, which Euractiv understands has very high-level connections with the German establishment. All these companies fear the EU regulation might put them on a back foot compared to US and Chinese competitors.

Who is Aleph Alpha talking to? Andy ideas who the ligh-level connections are? (Edit: it's Robert Habeck)

spotty-amber•11/13/23, 6:18 PM

https://www.bundestag.de/en/committees/a23

German Bundestag

German Bundestag - Committee on Digital Affairs

spotty-amber•11/13/23, 6:18 PM

spotty-amber•11/13/23, 6:18 PM

This is the Committee on Digital Affairs

spotty-amber•11/13/23, 6:19 PM

If some folks are German citizens, seems good to write to them, as citizens who are concerned

hurt-tomatoOP•11/13/23, 7:28 PM

Linkedin post by Aleph Alpha mentions a bunch of german politicians: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/aleph-alpha_luminous-trustworthy-explainable-activity-7084577856986435584-0Cyr

hurt-tomatoOP•11/13/23, 7:33 PM

They have been warning since april https://sifted.eu/articles/eu-ai-act-generative-chatgpt

hurt-tomatoOP•11/13/23, 7:38 PM

Seems dismissive about AI X-risk / push consiracy narrative: https://twitter.com/JonasAndrulis/status/1719106625414242734

hurt-tomatoOP•11/13/23, 7:42 PM

Luca Bertuzzi is doing a great job at covering this all as a journalist: https://twitter.com/BertuzLuca/status/1722997591342825904

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 12:42 PM

Looks like France is the main pusher here, germany is hopping along. Cedric O is the main bad guy here - he was state secretary for digital in france, but is now a Mistral investor... Anyways, germany is probably the best target. They are more likely to change their mind.

Robert Habeck, German minister of finance, is one of the unlikely lobbying forces behind all of this. As a representative of the Greens, you'd expect him to not be a lobby shill. He's now willing to trade the teeth of the AI act for a little bit of protectionism. Might make sense to protest at his office, or at the HQ of the greens in Berlin. If we can make him doubt his position, that leaves france, and that could help a lot.

The next trilogue between spain, france, germany will be held on december 6th. Perhaps it's best to do a protest a few days ahead of this, so we'll maximize the number of protestors and media attention.

Hhurt-tomato Looks like France is the main pusher here, germany is hopping along. Cedric O is...

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 1:44 PM

Is there a way to signal to him that we are not lunatics or at least that in that case so would be many AI researchers? I haven't yet checked out the panel discussion just linked in https://discord.com/channels/1100491867675709580/1104376348622995506/1173957349816401980, but that might have some answers? Like I get that politicians are in a very adversarial epistemic environment. How do we credibly translate that in fact a lot of ai experts think this is a big deal? That a lot of the veterans are changing their mind and maybe he should have someone investigate wether this is real? (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uFqnB6BG4bkMW23LR/at-87-pearl-is-still-able-to-change-his-mind , https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ri5qQoAiDGwckcZGh/geoff-hinton-quits-google )? Or is there some technical person that he relies on to talk about substance?

Discord

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hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 2:05 PM

Good questions. I don't know who he talks / listens to, but I think it would be a safe bet to target the party HQ. There will be a lot of his friends / peers / advisors there I think.

Regarding not looking like cranks: I think the most important thing is to be seen as authentic, but we have to strike a balance here. Especially for the greens we should be careful not to be perceived as some sort of corporate lobby campaign - having a bunch of printed signs may be perceived as "pro" and that fits into the whole "it's a big corporate conspiracy" narrative.

So I think the protest should be authentic, bottom up. This means that anyone who joins will have to be honest about what they are worried about. But yes, you want these messages to be credible.

One other thing to worry about is how fringe / niche the group looks. Many of our protests are white / young / male / student - it would be great if we have a bit more diversity. How about your rationalist group?

Hhurt-tomato Good questions. I don't know who he talks / listens to, but I think it would be ...

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 2:19 PM

Well I am not a pro, I got plastic canvases and acrylic paint, so at least that shouldn't be a problem.

Hhurt-tomato Good questions. I don't know who he talks / listens to, but I think it would be ...

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 2:39 PM

You mean in berlin? That would probably be a pretty hard sell for people in my group, but I can probably find someone in Berlin to reach out to and go there myself.
We are not "that young" though. I haven't actually asked how many would be up to join the protest. I just told them that I am planning to do something like this and seemed to be relatively well received. If we go to Berlin I expect max 2 people to join me, but I will ask them.

I could reach out to ~~Karl Olsberg~~Karl von Wendt though, since he has been going around and talking to people in academia and might have quite a few people who would join this because they read his book/watch his youtube channel?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Olsberg

Karl Olsberg

Karl Olsberg ist das Pseudonym des deutschen Schriftstellers und Unternehmers Karl-Ludwig Max Hans Freiherr von Wendt (* 19. Dezember 1960 in Bielefeld).

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 2:41 PM

Haven't seen his stuff, but sounds like a great idea!

Hhurt-tomato Haven't seen his stuff, but sounds like a great idea!

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 2:49 PM

He is making videos about xrisk in german. He is very reasonable.

Hhurt-tomato Haven't seen his stuff, but sounds like a great idea!

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:08 PM

Do you think a protest is the best idea though before I mobilize everyone? I started this because I saw the news with Germany and France blocking the AI act and another person in the discord was up for starting a protest and it seemed sensible and I didn't expect to get much out of contacting my mp (or perhaps that seemed scarry).
I am not sure if I am just feeling more urgent about this because I am usually pretty isolated from AI politics news or at least didn't even consider doing myself something about it. Like is this the kind of situation where you want to reach out to this EA emergency task force (or something like that? I signed up for something like that)? Would that be helpfull? From the people you talked to like Daniel Privitera and the person from fli are they currently doing something about this? Is this going to go well anyways because the governments don't have "that" much power?

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:11 PM

Ha, I should have checked this earlier:
https://www.gruene.de/artikel/parteitag-23-bis-26-november-2023

BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN

Parteitag – 23. bis 26. November 2023

Die 49. Bundesdelegiertenkonferenz von Bündnis 90/Die Grünen in Karlsruhe.

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:15 PM

The Bundesdelegiertenkonferenz of the greens is in my city in a week!

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:15 PM

From GPT-4:

The Bundesdelegiertenkonferenz is the highest decision-making body of a German political party. It is often used in reference to the Green Party, but can also apply to other parties. For example, within the Green Party, the Bundesdelegiertenkonferenz is the term for the party congress where delegates of the party vote on political guidelines, programs, and personnel decisions.

The delegates for this conference are usually elected by the party's lower-level units, such as state associations or district associations. The Bundesdelegiertenkonferenz is an important tool of internal party democracy, as it represents the member base and makes fundamental decisions for the party. It typically takes place annually or biennially, but can also be convened in extraordinary circumstances.

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:25 PM

So maybe Karlsruhe is a good place after all?

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 3:28 PM

bruh awesome!

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 3:29 PM

Is your rationality group diverse? this may sound a bit odd, but it really is important

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 3:30 PM

and do you know party members?

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 3:30 PM

could also work

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:36 PM

We have a pretty old teacher. I just talked with my mother who's an activist at greenpeace (eg. she is not member of the green party because they are not green enough). She is currently busy, but I'll ask her for more contacts later (She already gave me one person to talk to).

Hhurt-tomato Is your rationality group diverse? this may sound a bit odd, but it really is im...

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 3:37 PM

My family would probably be up to join now that I think about it. It is more diverse if the 2 parents bring their partner and children (I'll ask them)

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 3:38 PM

As long as they also actually believe in the cause that is awesome!

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 4:01 PM

https://techcrunch.com/2023/11/14/eu-ai-act-trilogue-crunch/

Hhurt-tomato Looks like France is the main pusher here, germany is hopping along. Cedric O is...

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 6:11 PM

Robert Habeck, German minister of finance, is one of the unlikely lobbying forces behind all of this. As a representative of the Greens, you'd expect him to not be a lobby shill. He's now willing to trade the teeth of the AI act for a little bit of protectionism. Might make sense to protest at his office, or at the HQ of the greens in Berlin. If we can make him doubt his position, that leaves france, and that could help a lot.

How do we know that Habeck is the main player here? Like why not the Minister on Digital Affairs? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Ministry_for_Digital_and_Transport

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 6:13 PM

Or is it just about it being easier to convince the greens?

Uurgent-maroon We have a pretty old teacher. I just talked with my mother who's an activist at ...

urgent-maroon•11/14/23, 6:55 PM

Currently asking in my group which day would work best for people. Would probably set a date tomorrow then.

hurt-tomatoOP•11/14/23, 8:17 PM

Habeck is everywhere with Aleph - on pictures, in articles... Basically championing em

moderate-tomato•11/15/23, 2:20 AM

Two open letters in support of regulating foundation models

https://www.ai-statement.com

https://www.digitalsme.eu/general-purpose-ai-fit-for-european-small-scale-innovators/

Call for regulating foundation models

European DIGITAL SME AllianceGiorgos Verdi

General-Purpose AI fit for European small-scale innovators - Europe...

Big Tech wants to exclude General-Purpose AI from the scope of the AI Act. In response, the European DIGITAL SME […]

Uurgent-maroon Currently asking in my group which day would work best for people. Would probabl...

urgent-maroon•11/15/23, 11:24 AM

Enthusiasm about this in my group has been way less than I had hoped. I got 1 other person who'd be willing to join. I think in general they are very skeptical of a protest helping.

Uurgent-maroon Enthusiasm about this in my group has been way less than I had hoped. I got 1 ot...

hurt-tomatoOP•11/15/23, 11:33 AM

LW folk tend to be comfortable with navigating the mental space, but not the real world. Inaction bias, unfortunately...

Uurgent-maroon You mean in berlin? That would probably be a pretty hard sell for people in my g...

urgent-maroon•11/15/23, 6:28 PM

I emailed Karl von Wendt and he said I should be careful to not address the greens as a party, but perhaps individual Green supporters as 'reasonable people concerned about the future'. Before I am actually successful and the issue becomes polarized. I think that is actually a pretty valid point.

hurt-tomatoOP•11/15/23, 7:47 PM

Fair!

urgent-maroon•11/15/23, 11:28 PM

I think I mostly gave up on the protesting angle. Currently mostly trying to comprehend the situation better like reading stuff like this: https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/context/
I am still reaching out to people (thanks for this article by the way: https://pauseai.info/lobby-tips)

The Artificial Intelligence Act

Institutional Context

Hhurt-tomato Looks like France is the main pusher here, germany is hopping along. Cedric O is...

urgent-maroon•11/15/23, 11:53 PM

I've gotten two times now that people said it's proably actually the FDP that is the main problem. I've heard third hand (from a friend of someone who is in the green party) that apparently there is "too much money in play" with Aleph Alpha and the FDP would be hard to influence. I don't know how lobbying usually works and how effective easy it is to buy politicians. But it seems like Aleph Alpha might have done quite a lot in this area based on the public lobby-register.

urgent-maroon•11/15/23, 11:59 PM

https://www.lobbyregister.bundestag.de/suche?q=AI%20Act
If you search there for AI Act you find 5 companies. 4 of them have lobbied since 2022. Each 1-5 people working on this. Using up 10K-20K (does this include lobbyists sallaries? and gifts to politicians?). Never gifted more than 20.000€ (in total? per individual? not sure how that works).
For 2023 all of them didn't have to update their profile yet.
Aleph Alpha has 51-60 people working on lobbying according to their report?Haven't disclosed anything on the amounts of money they spent (which they have to at the end of the year as far as I can tell).

Lobbyregister beim Deutschen Bundestag

Lobbyregister-Suche nach "AI Act"

Detaillierte Informationen zu den Einträgen ansehen, weiter filtern oder als PDF-/JSON-Datei herunterladen.

urgent-maroon•11/16/23, 12:01 AM

What is the best channel for background info like this?

urgent-maroon•11/16/23, 12:01 AM

Lobby-strategy or Policy?

moderate-tomato•11/16/23, 2:44 AM

Yoshua Bengio in a German language newspaper:

Die EU droht, eine einzigartige Chance zu verspielen

https://background.tagesspiegel.de/digitalisierung/die-eu-droht-eine-einzigartige-chance-zu-verspielen?utm_source=bg+website&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share&utm_content=di

Die EU droht, eine einzigartige Chance zu verspielen

skinny-azure•11/16/23, 7:13 AM

HAve you chatted with the EffiSciences folks in France about this? I wouldn't be surprised if they had good connections and could source expert quotes against the proposed deregulation.

hurt-tomatoOP•11/16/23, 1:21 PM

The AI ACt team will have a meeting in Strasbourg on 20 / 21st nov (parliament building).

We could do a small protest there. @Tassilo you think you can get a few to join?

AI Act protest germany

What needs to happen

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