✅ Confused about C# as a beginner
This language and its associated ecosystem is confusing af coming from Python.
1. If C# is the language syntax, is .NET the platform providing a standard runtime implementation for said language (similar to PVM & JVM)? Or a compiler? Or is it both? If not, what's the name of the software that provides a standard runtime for C# applications?
2. For some reason, apparently there is also a framework called .NET... so what's the difference between the framework .NET and the platform .NET?
4. ASP.NET, if i understood correctly this is a web framework like any other framework such as Django, Ruby On Rails, Laravel, Spring Boot, etc.. the confusion is where Blazor comes in, because apparently you gotta use both ASP.NET and Blazor, but both are described as individual web frameworks? 🤔
5. Core, god, every tool i mentioned above apparently has a "Core" version, e.g .NET Core, ASP.NET Core, you name it... What does "core" imply and why are there two versions of things?
348 Replies
1. .NET is indeed equivalent to JVM
2. .Net framework is the old windows only implementation, then came a cross platform implementation named
.Net Core it was then rebranded .Net
3. Blazor basically allows you to write C# for the frontend
4. Core was added to distinquish between the old and new implementationyou have discovered how good microsoft is at naming things
To flesh out #1 a bit, C# <-> Java, Roslyn <-> javac, .NET Runtime <-> JVM.
ASP.NET is the backend framework, and Blazor is a frontend framework? how, wasm?
both wasm and a server side option that syncs the page contents over a websocket
is .NET the actual .NET Runtime, or is .NET an SDK that includes the runtime?
and now some actual SSR stuff too afaik
Potentially both
There's SDKs and runtimes (they're just called the .NET SDK and the .NET runtime)
oh my god
No different to the JRE and JDK
the runtime is technically the CLR
im no java dev
If relating to Java is useful for you
if you can speak in python terms, maybe rust terms, i might understand
the only difference between the SDK and runtime (installer wise) is the SDK has the extra tools you need to write software and not just run it
One of those lacks a runtime and the other lacks a compiler so it's a bit ehh...
Unknown User•6mo ago
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Roslyn (using the .NET SDK) compiles C# to IL. IL is run by the CLR (aka the .NET runtime).
okay, me who have never written a line of C# code to this date, how do i make a hello world?
yes a bit
.NET Core console application
ignore anything that says .NET Framework, those are old legacy versions
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so ill look at .NET / .NET Core?
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If you're new to the ecosystem, ignore anything called .NET Framework and anything called .NET Core.
They're both old at this point. You're looking at .NET 8.
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don't we have a tag to explain microsoft's grand naming scheme
so i dont use the .NET / .NET Core tab on Rider either?
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Well it says .NET so yes, you will use it.
so what happened was basically
old .net = .net framework
new .net = .net core
net framework is not getting new versions so now anything recent is simply .net because the "core" qualifier is redundant
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.NET Framework is like Python 2, don't use it. .NET Core and .NET up to .NET 7 are like Python 3.x. .NET 8 is Python 3.12.
$.net
.NET is a marketing term referring to a family of products, consisting of two different lineages.
The .NET Framework ("netfx") lineage was introduced in 2002. This lineage runs only on Windows. Its most recent release is .NET Framework 4.8.1. While this lineage is still supported, very few new features are being introduced into it. Devs are encouraged not to target .NET Framework for new app development.
The .NET Core ("netcore") lineage was introduced in 2016. This is a modern development platform which runs across many different OSes. The .NET Core 3.1 product was the last version in this lineage to bear the ".NET Core" name; and starting with the next release (.NET 5), the product was renamed to simply ".NET". The most recent release in this lineage is .NET 7. This lineage is where new features are actively being developed. Devs are encouraged to target .NET for new app development.
Nowadays, the ".NET" moniker usually refers to recent versions of the netcore lineage. When you create a new app targeting .NET (not .NET Framework!), you're targeting this newer, modern, cross-platform API surface and runtime.
why is nothing named .NET 8 in Rider?
Because it'll be just ".NET" - 8 is just the version
is net8.0 a compiler?
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No, it's a version of .NET. The compiler is called roslyn.
aha the standard compiler is called roslyn, i see
You'll basically never interact directly with roslyn.
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The SDK has build tools that'll do it for you.
And Rider uses the SDK.
Roslyn -> compiler like javac?
.NET -> ? (still dont get this part, is it an SDK, a framework, a runtime..)
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.NET is a marketing term referring to a family of products, consisting of two different lineages.It's all of those things generally referred to together.
ok so its an SDK
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just read the thing i pasted
.NET is an umbrella term
i did read it, the definition meets an SDK no?
or am i confusing the terms
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i think you're confusing it
When people say ".NET", as a developer, they're generally talking about the combination of the SDK and the runtime. Usually people will specify if they mean otherwise.
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i'm going to assume you know what SDK means, and that you don't need it to run applications built using one
is Roslyn is the compiler, what is the runtime called?
....NET
.NET runtime
or the CLR if you want to be specific
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(common language runtime)
yk what, Java do actually look interesting
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Alright, you'll ask the same questions and receive the same answers about Java.
/s
Java sucks dick...
Java has all the same moving parts
ok so when i choose console app in Rider, i assume it generates some boilerplate code for me, but apart from written code does it configure to use specific tools from the .NET framework/runtime/sdk/whatever it is?
Yes.
I mean, just create the project and you'll see..
like what? if i wanted to create the same console app that rider generates for me, but manually in vscode, what would i configure?
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there's not much configuration involved, you can see it all by opening the .csproj file in a text editor
you'd run
dotnet new console in a terminalYou'd use the
dotnet CLI tool and call dotnet new consoleto generate a project from that template
oh didnt know about the cli tool, thats interesting
(which is essentially all that the Rider project creation stuff is doing)
is
dotnet like node or npm?Unknown User•6mo ago
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you can do anything you need to do with the CLI
Yeah, both node and npm's functionality is included in the one tool
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is it safe to say that .NET is what CPython is for Python but for C#?
no
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if by that you mean it's the standard implementation of everything, sure
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how did dotnet become a standard with this mess
it's not that complicated
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what's that got to do with the dotnet tool running all of the equivalents..?
it shouldnt have to be, leading example -> rust
You don't call rustc directly
You use Cargo
Just the same as you don't call roslyn directly, you use the
dotnet toolof all the languages to reference when talking about confusing names i wouldn't choose rust 
cargo is a well defined tool though
So is the dotnet CLI
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yet dotnet is an umbrella term for everything in the dotnet ecosystem
half the rust packages i see have cutesy names that don't tell you anything about what they do
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Right, so how does that mean dotnet doesn't encompass the behaviour of both node and npm for .NET?
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???
rustup -> toolchain manager
rustc -> rust compiler
cargo -> build/package manager
dotnet -> everything
But you don't usually call rustc yourself
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that's not the point
Absolutely no idea what point you're trying to prove
The C# compiler is different from dotnet cli
you're really getting hung up on a name for no good reason
You just never use it directly
There's nothing stopping you from calling Roslyn just as there's nothing stopping you from calling rustc. It's just much more common to use the build tools (dotnet and cargo).
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roslyn -> compiler
nuget -> package manager
dotnet -> general CLI entry point
again you're right, but that's not the point im trying to make here. cargo is well defined, it's a build and package manager. dotnet is more than what cargo is, and im not only talking about the CLI, but
.NETmsbuild -> build system
OK?
Seems like you're highlighting that as a distinction but for what reason?
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this is getting boring, it's just a name of a command
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you're thinking about it too hard
The dotnet CLI tool is just as "well defined" as rustup and cargo, it just has a larger scope. It's really a distinction without a purpose.
it's no worse than docker, for example
You'd be better off just getting on with using it instead of worrying about whether you'd rather live in a world where you had two applications instead of one 🙂
.NET Framework (legacy)
.NET Core (legacy)
.NET (modern)
.NET Runtime (uses Roslyn to compile?)
.NET SDK (what does this include?)
Note that there's no real equivalent to
rustup in the .net worldNo, the runtime does not compile anything.
the runtime runs things
the compiler compiles things
so it's not a JIT?
it is a JIT
does it not compile just in time, in the runtime?
Roslyn == javac
c# -> compiled to CIL -> JIT to assembly
Ok yes it JITs but it's a runtime. Not a compiler.
The JIT compiler (which you never need to interact with directly or care about) is called RyuJIT, if you really care
This is just wordplay at this point
Just like Java has Hotspot
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the names don't matter for 90% of the work you do
probably not but its good to be familiar with the terms regardless
You're not consistent in your own definitions so why care?
Just use the bloody thing x)
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if i dont care then ill never be consistent with my definitions?
im trying to understand the ecosystem
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you can learn that over time, not particularly something a beginner digs into
it's easier to be consistent after you've worked with it to understand the different pieces
What are you still confused about @evrsen ?
I mean at this point the basics have been explained thrice over and the goalposts are being moved I'd suggest just getting started and seeing where you get to
Best of luck and enjoy 🙂
thanks
i'm trying to build a simple mental model of how things work in C# apps rather than keeping it all magic for learning it later, and i'm trying to do so by using previous knowledge primarily from python, but also understanding from node and rust. i know what a runtime is, i know what a compiler is, i know what a package manager is, but both java and c# is a bit confusing because they seem to have more moving parts than the languages i already know.
python -> programming language syntax
cpython -> standard implementation of python
the cpython implementation contains the stdlib, runtime, etc..
pip -> package manager for python
rust -> programming language syntax
rustc -> standard implementation of rust
the rustc implementation also contians the stdlib
cargo -> package manager for rust
this is straight forward and is the mental model i have in my mind when someone talks about python or rust respectively
in the case of C#, it's a bit more complicated for me.
c# -> programming language syntax
? -> standard implementation of c#
? -> package manager
this does not seem to cut it for C# because there are more moving parts, especially .NET and all the .NET variants like .NET SDK .NET RUNTIME .NET Core etc..
Yeah, you're way overcomplicating this
For .NET, you can pretty much just slap the name of the component on the end, and that's the thing you're talking about
.NET Standard Library - the standard library impl of .NET
.NET Runtime - the standard runtime impl of .NET
(also, C# is not the only .NET language)
nuget - the package manager of .NET
dotnet - the general CLI interface of .NET that allows you to interact with the various components in a single, unified syntax so you don't have to think about the many things that go into it
That is not helpingUnknown User•6mo ago
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There's a time for trolling. This isn't it 🙂
i see
in Rider, i created a new Console app in .NET Core with net8.0
and i cannot access
dotnet cli in the terminal
nor nugetWhat system are you on?
macOS
Have you restarted your terminal since you installed .NET? I'm not sure how
dotnet normally gets put on the path in Macyes i started this project after rider installed .NET for me
But there's no magic in general here: you need to have the executable on your path
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it runs the program fine
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Well, you're not going to find
nuget on the pathUnknown User•6mo ago
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As I said, there's a single CLI interface
oh right dotnet instead of nuget
However, as to
dotnet, I don't know how rider installed .NET
It may not have put it on your path, or you may need to log out/back in to get variables to refresh and apply to your sessionUnknown User•6mo ago
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Rider is just using absolute paths to wherever it installed it, so it doesn't care whether it's on the path or not
do y'all know how i can manage .NET installations on Rider, ill see if i can reinstall it
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No, I don't use Rider
what do you use?
vscode
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ill do that
i just want to figure out how i can uninstall the .net installation from rider
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no there is no dotnet in path
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/usr/local/share doesn't exist on my system lol
O.o
That seems... weird
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Fascinating
OSX is like looking through a funhouse mirror
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It's not
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are packages/dependencies installed per project or globally? in rust all packages installed through cargo are local to the project in Cargo.lock
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"installed" is a strong word
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There's a global nuget cache in
~/.nuget, and that's where most projects will reference from by default, but you can change it per-project if you wantUnknown User•6mo ago
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so its like python?
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lol
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Similar (if my understanding is right), but unlike in python, you're not basically required to use a
venv if you want to actually be productivei see
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@🦤🦤🦤
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i have to change something in order to make dotnet accessible from the cli
but idk what to change
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whats a "solution"?
pycharm doesnt use the term "solution" for projects
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ah okay
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i see
thanks for explaining
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this is so weird
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that dotnet was not added to path
yet the executable exists
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I assume Rider was trying to be helpful and not install .NET globally
But you probably don't want it to be so helpful
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i have not gone to that point yet, trying to understand how rider manages it's own .net installation and see if i can work around it, if not ill see if i can completely uninstall it and then install from dot.net
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i'd expect it to add dotnet to the shell spawned in the project
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I can't answer that 😄
rider's terminal isn't special, it just opens to the project root
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it doesn't add any environment
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User/evrsen/.dotnet seems quite global to me, or does dotnet work different to all other macos apps?It doesn't work different to any other app
Which is why that is not global, nor is it automatically added to your path
Global means "for all users"
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That is clearly not for all users 🙂
i get what you're saying, i'm probably gonna end up doing that, i'm just playing around with the current situation
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why would i want anything to be for all users?
lol, i mean, how is that relevant in the context of x being added to path
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It's not. These are separate things
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The way that most linuxes work (not sure if osx follows this same principle) is that it will drop an executable in a well-known directory with all your other exectuables
IE.
/usr/bin, or some other well-known bin location
Those well-known locations are always on your path
~/.dotnet is not a well-known location to your OS
Nothing is going to automatically add that to your pathhttps://rider-support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/7613539885586-Rider-unable-to-detect-Net-Core-but-dotnet-command-shows-correct-info well apparently dotnet is added to path for others
Rider Support | JetBrains
Rider unable to detect .Net Core but dotnet command shows correct info
Rider (2022.2.2 Build #RD-222.3962.23, built on August 20, 2022) is unable to locate my .Net Core install, even though dotnet --info shows that it exists and that my Rider settings should be using...
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That is kubuntu, and they installed the official packages
That dropped a
dotnet in /usr/bin, which is likely a symlink to /usr/lib/dotnet/dotnetUnknown User•6mo ago
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Read the linked issue 😛
It isn't share
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https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-91040/Dotnet-not-found-in-Rider-on-MacOS
can this be something
looks similar, but i dont understand what the solution was
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Ok, let's take a step back for a second
When we say "it's not on the path", do you understand what we're saying?
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read further down
yes
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Ok, then what are you not understanding about the solution?
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https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/RIDER-91040/Dotnet-not-found-in-Rider-on-MacOS#focus=Comments-27-7826688.0-0
what's the rework they did that solves this problem is what i was asking
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i have the executable, it's just not in path, i'm trying to fiddle around and see if i can make rider recognise it and add it to path for me, rather than manually editing path variables
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yes?
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how can i completely uninstall the dotnet rider installed
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Delete the folder
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I would
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On Mac, you must remove the SDKs and runtimes separately, by removing the versioned directories. Removing them deletes the SDK and runtime from disk. So yes, just remove the directory.i removed the directory
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i just wanted to know if i could make jetbrains install work properly
You could add it to your path
what's the difference between Console and Class dotnet project?
A classlib is a library
A library of classes
It's not an executable
was it at the time?
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did you get it figured out? i just saw the notifications
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if you want to uninstall, then well, that’s the location
i don’t think rider installs in a particular different location
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from what i read here, there was uncertainty where rider installs the sdk
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yea, default location 🙂
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for running rider itself, there’s a bundled runtime
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sounds sus
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Well, it installs to
~/.dotnet
Which is where the dotnet-install.sh script will put things, but that's not really "official" or anythingUnknown User•6mo ago
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And it doesn't put it on the path, which I think was the real issue here
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i’ll check
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was it installed from rider arm?
or rider intel?
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i mean thats a trouble you go through most apps when ur on apple silicon
TeBeCo
Quoted by
<@689473681302224947> from #Confused about C# as a beginner (click here)
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many installers defaults to intel version for macos, i've had to manually select apple silicon many times
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when I click download on the website, it downloads aarch64
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discord, python and vscode have universal macos installers
@🦤🦤🦤 i also get arm from download
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this is what i get
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arc... should I try another one?
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we solved the problem by uninstalling jetbrains dotnet installation and installing the official pkg, the problem was that rider didnt add dotnet to path and i was looking around to see if rider allowed an "Add to PATH" option but couldnt find anything, otherwise i'd like to stick with jetbrains installation to keep everything local.
arc (chrome)
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sure
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that seems more like it
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how can i create a normal .net project in rider? no Console no Class Library etc.. just a regular hello world
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@🦤🦤🦤
await navigator.userAgentData.getHighEntropyValues(['architecture'])Unknown User•6mo ago
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that seems like a "solid" way to determine architecture
but it fails on safari
what if i want to make a rest api of that app?
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i think we are (i am) derailing the thread 🙂 i will forward that information
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TeBeCo
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<@689473681302224947> from #newsfeed (click here)
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From what I see, there's no reliable way in Safari to know whether M1 or not... That's kinda shocking, considering it's their product 🙂
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yea well... user agent too
Yea, I'm also considering that... and possibly also a confirmation dialog on install "You are on ARM but installing INTEL" ... something like that... latest in the installer it should be possibly to check reliably
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yea, why safari 🙂
Arc is for the cool kids
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not for me anymore
is vscode common for c# devs in the industry? or is an IDE like vs or rider used more (similar to java's case where intellij/eclipse is the industry standard)
It's becoming more common, now that devkit is officially out
Though many will still prefer the more fully-featured experience of an IDE
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gimme a few minutes
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me
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i still want new socks