Objectively, what makes clothes "high quality"
I have a $4 local brand, $40 Uniqlo and $150 Brooks Brothers shirt. There is defintely a noticable physical difference between local and Uniqlo but not so much going up to Brooks Brothers I can't see a physical difference as they both fit great and are made of the same material. Another comparison, I have $40 chinos from M&S and $80 from Massimo Dutti and there are only slight differences between the two.
Has the diminishing returns started kicking in from the middle price range?
155 Replies
lol
There's no "objective" measure of quality. There are objective qualities I guess you could measure (durability, softness, whatever) but how much those actually matter to you is a toss up
Prices aren't just based on quality
Yeah they're based on how and where shit is made and what it's made out of (and how and where the shit it's made out of is made... and so on). pretty much every aspect of an item of clothing (from the branding to the way it's shipped to you or the brick and mortar store you buy it from) has a complex supply chain
But yeah basically you get to decide what quality means or if it matters to you. I think it's good to know how basic necessities are made and where they come from tho, so I think it's worth doing some research and deepish thinking about it instead of throwing your hands up and buying the cheapest shit you can find
i've increasingly leaned towards buying shit just bc i like them
at a certain point the elements of a clothing is unique to itself and you might not be happy w/ an alternative
Oh boy, that's a question people don't like because quantifying qualities of your clothes is really only done for outdoorsy stuff where performance matters. I think you're trying to figure out what you're paying for, and there's likely no rule you can apply.
But really, the costs comes from a variety of things. Sourcing raw materials and manufacturing are probably closest to the "quality" you're expecting. But there's design, styling, marketing, and things like sustainability that are also elements that makes something "worth it" to people.
"Quality" is undefinable so there is no "objective" measure. You even run into things like the odds that you'll get a lemon from a maker. Maybe the uniqlo shirt you got was awesome but they might have a higher miss rate than J Press, you'll likely never know.
Also things that don't make it into the final garment in a tangible way like where it was made have a large impact on cost.
quality means different things to different people. a lot of people default to the notion that expensive = quality, and thats why you have brands that seem to be constantly on sale. you know, the "80% off! buy now!" when you go to a website when in reality it's just a marketing ploy to make you think the item's normal price (and 'quality,' whatever that means) is way higher than it actually is (invicta, anyone?). of course, it can be argued that price to some degree can be a very general indication of 'quality' - maybe handmade, better materials, higher degree of craftmanship, etc. - but i think after a certain price point, there's definitely some diminishing returns in terms of 'quality' and a good chunk of the extra cost is really just for the brand and/or image
It's not just quality and brand, clothes have to be designed too. A lot of heritage brands that market themselves on "quality", "miusa" etc. make ugly ass clothes
"paying for brand" is just as ambiguous as quality.
99% of the time it feels like "quality" is a weird rationalization of "I like it"
thanks for the thoughts guys
looks like I'll be keeping my purchases in the middle "value" range for basics
Read “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” I’m sure you’ll find the answer in there!
Quality is also very dependent on the purpose of the garment. Generally speaking materials, craftsmanship and design are the main factors for determining quality. However these can get subjective quickly.
some factors like fit, comfort and aesthetic are subjective.
durability is more objective. but it's also a hard one to measure (aside from buying it and wearing it for years)
THIS
also, absolutely nobody is going to know or care if your chinos are from brooks bros or uniqlo.
you just go with the one thats comfortable and fits. and if both do, you get the cheaper one. (unless maybe youre super passionate enough about it to want to pay more for the marginal difference)
I usually try to avoid polyester bends since it makes the fabric less breathable. Polyester also affects the washability and isn't biodegradable.
Also, Brook Brothers have been declining in quality for years, so a comparison between a Uniqlo shirt and a Brook Brothers shirt is probably not useful.
When you're shopping, avoid polyester blends and inspect the stitching and the density of the fabric.
ex. If you're shopping for a T-shirt, try to find one that's 100% cotton.
Not all poly is bad. You may not like it and that's fine, but recommending someone wholesale avoid it is bad advice. Poly is great for certain purposes, and there is a spectrum of low to high quality poly just like any other textile.
what are some examples of good uses for poly? and what separates high quality poly from low?
For example rain proofing, some more technical garments almost always include some artificial fibers.
for under layers if you're going hiking in snow and such. Merino wool can be better from a smell aspect, but sometimes polyester can keep you warmer
I don't think the average person could tell good stitching from bad, I've been into fashion for years and I don't think I could. Density also isn't an objective measure, light open weaves have uses too.
You rub a garment between your fingers and say ‘hmmm’
are we all just pretending
i feel thatYes
Most of us dont really have expertise or work in the industry
We just go off of youtube videos and articles. From people who also watch the same videos and articles.
And it all becomes incestuous
and then people have very strong opinions from it
I think fashion is subjective and nobody knows what the hell theyre doing
So just try on clothes, buy pieces you like, that fit properly.
Forget the brand, price diff, etc
Forget the brand, price diff, etc
both of your comments are extremely reductive
Fashion is subjective but you don't need industry knowledge to know what you're doing, that's an insane standard
Ironically I think people in the industry would disagree with your comments in this thread anyway
i agree i shouldnt have used absolute words like nobody/everybody
but for people claiming X clothes are high/low quality. i would doubt how good they are at telling the difference.
I'm just really tired of having to do so much research for every aspect of my life. Why can't producers make things without trying to fuck me over
Funnily enough I think clothing is an area where this doesn’t matter that much. Construction quality on almost all garments, shoes, etc. is good enough and by simply wearing and mindfully observing items you can tell whether it looks good or not
As opposed to like anything in tech I swear I need to watch 2hrs of YouTube videos to find half decent lightbulbs
Like the vast majority of clothing content is just cool outfits. Reviews I personally don’t get much value from them beyond sizing
I thrift a lot and I'm confident I could tell an okay fabric from a shitty one by hand feel. Okay here being h&m tier. I agree to an extent quality doesn't matter, like beans just said. I'm just saying there's more to higher price points than "better quality". People pay for design, unique details (EG pockets), drape, etc. of course there are people just buying for brand name but there are valid reasons to prefer higher price points
This is more of a response to your comment higher up https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1184374817470824528/1185404768764579911
Yeah, there are clearly differences at these different price points and brands; it's just that "objective quality" is a meaningless buzzword. You need to have an understanding of what you're looking for beyond some one-size-fits-all metric
Probably abou 60% fabric weight. 40% other stuff.
so i found this YT channel - Jennifer Wang who goes through the exact question above - how to objectively spot high quality vs low
specific things like stitching, material, construction
And did you use your critical thinking
Could you outline what she said
If you keep looking for objectivity in fashion youre going to be disappointed
Objectively you just need swag
Almost like there are objective qualities you could measure but not one complete metric
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Yeah, this isn't true at all. Style can be very subjective, but there are objective traits for example on what makes a shirt better than another shirt
At its peak, styleforum was a great place to ask about fabric quality and stitching
That's silly. I said that there were objective traits, but if I asked you if raw silk or wool or linen or cotton were better for a shirt, there wouldn't be a definitive answer. You can describe objective qualities, but there is no objective quality. That's for menswear nerds who think dressing is done by formula
This is helpful but in no way objective
Says who?
Don't you want to get the best clothes for your money that won't prematurely fall apart?
You can get clothes that won't "prematurely fall apart" without obsessing over thread count and fabric weight
and nice clothes that are delicate exist, like lace
cuz i have no fucking idea what to do w/ that information 💀
those are literally words to the layperson
Says common sense? That would be like me saying there's an objective number to how good a song is. You can measure things about it, you can describe what key it is, what the tempo is, what time signature, how loud, whatever, but if you start saying "this is objectively the best song for your money" you're clearly reaching.
What you should do is describe the way those qualities achieve something. If durability is the only thing you care about, wear a suit of armor.
"Common sense" that flies in the face advice that can be found in the subreddit and official substack?
A decently made cotton shirt isn't a suit of armor, what are you talking about?
so.... what's 'best?'
What are you looking for? A shirt? Khakis? A jacket?
anything. lets go with shirt
What are you looking for?
It shouldnt matter if theres objective quality
exactly
That post you shared says nothing about quality being objective, that's all you
This really is not a hill worth dying on lmao
But it sure is a fun hill
Here's an example: "Yarn Number: When it comes to shirting this is more important than Thread Count. Yarns vary in how smooth or rough they are. Higher yarn numbers indicate that the threads used are thinner and finer, which is what makes luxury shirts feel smooth and soft to the touch. Lower yarn numbers result in fabrics that are thicker and coarser. In this image you can compare a swatch of fabric with 100 yarn number on the left with one that is 200 on the right. You can actually see how the threads on the right are approximately half the size of those on the left. The compromise for higher yarn counts is that they’re far less durable. Shirts can be found as low as 24 or as high as 200+ but most quality shirts typically range from 80-120 (too low and you’re getting into low quality fabrics, too high and the trade-off for longevity may not be worth it). If you see a shirt advertised as 100/2 then that means the yarn number is 100 and the yarn has been spun 2-ply."
That's an objective number but notice there's a bit in there that says "compromise"
There's no number there that's objectively the best
It's about what your goals are with the shirt
A guide isn't a rulebook and that guide is also from 11 years ago
but... but.... what if my shirt goals are to have the best and highest quality 
There's an updated guide
Let me look for the substack login so I can add this bit:
"Yeah, there are clearly differences at these different price points and brands; it's just that "objective quality" is a meaningless buzzword. You need to have an understanding of what you're looking for beyond some one-size-fits-all metric"
People who come in here looking for the highest quality whatever don't have that understanding
The information is useful to see whether you're getting your money's worth.
...is "money's worth" objective?
That's a judgement call
What's objectively the best car
how do i use that thread when im actually looking at tee shirts though
You kind of have to know something about that person's lifestyle and what they're going to use it for, what their lifestyle is, if they're the type of person who can maintain it
Not a Chrysler, Fiat, or GM car.
Sure, you can rule out some obvious things, in the same way I can rule out some shirts as being probably bad for most people
But like
Do you not see my point
idm paying more for better quality clothes, I just wanna make sure I'm not overpaying for bad quality
Exactly
guys we're just talking in circles here. whats better 'quality' even mean? what does overpaying mean?
It's a meaningless question without context!
I'll give an example
Are you a tech bro? Just buy uniqlo, no one will give a shit about your outfits beyond that, there you go
There's my objective truth
If you're swagless, stop trying to make it a science
obviously most people want the best quality' for the 'best price' but that could mean a $10 cotton shirt to one person and a $100 silk shirt to another
I thrifted a $130 Brooks bro shirt and a $170 Ralph Lauren shirt
Is a suit made of polyester a good suit?
it can be if you want to catch fire
If it's issey miyake, sure!
instantly I could feel the BB shirt was better "quality" by hand feel, the RL felt like paper plastic
I'm not the one turning this into a postmodernist hypothetical
bruh
You are the one butchering definitions though
but what if you want a paper plastic shirt
trying to evolve out of this 😂
RL would be better
So I nailed it in one, right? Are you in tech and trying to upgrade your outfits
People can argue about the minute details about what is considered the "best," but there's a thing as a good shirt versus a bad shirt.
It's relative to the person.
There can be good and bad shirts. That doesn't mean there is objective good shirts
This isn't an RPG where you can assign stats to a piece of clothing.
You shouldn't eat shit for dinner, that doesn't mean there is objectively good food
But if it was, we have a guide for that too
Here you go, here's the actually only good piece of content MFA ever made: https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/comments/153mk1/goth_ninja_rpg_strategy_guide_part_i_general/
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Price is a bad determiner of quality, you're not wrong there.
So you would be overlooking the product's shortcomings just because of the brand name?
Uh
it doesn't feel like you're engaging in good faith
There's a reason why the issey miyake suit is using polyester: because you can't get the same effect using wool. You might not like what that effect is which is where the subjectivity comes in
isnt that kind of what you did with the car brands
i would not touch a h&m tee but nobody gives a fuck if im wearing a uniqlo one or a norse project one because they're not in my face feeling my clothes up
if i wanted a oversized tee i get the damn oversized tee
My point isn't that there aren't differences; it's that it's a judgement call about those differences
And trying to talk about getting your money's worth obscures the fact that clothing is about your taste, not math
talking quality only works with shit as boring as white tees because there's literally nothing that visually delinates them from each other lmao
which is against the point of dressing better
💀
minmaxing black chinos or white sneakers for what
nobody will tell the difference
and if you think buying xyz is a good value then nobody else needs to tell you otherwise anyways
anything more is just asking for pointless validation
and that you actually don't know if it's a good decision
exactly. buy what you want for whatever reasons you have with whatever money you feel like spending
also has to do with utility vs fashion
but even then you're the one assigning wahtever criteria they're being judged against. it's always subjective.
I think it's cool to appreciate those details; I do. But it's a mistake to try to apply listicle brain to them
As in "here are the five best shirts" list articles
Yes
ok here's some objective qualities I'm looking for in a pair of pants for example:
- fits well - tapered cut
- lasts 5 years
- colour doesn't fade
- doesn't deform after washing
- people ask me "oh where did you get your pants from?"
- additional nice to have stuff - quality pockets, sturdy zipper, buttons
- cheapest price for all of the above
What kind of pants? Jeans? Chinos? Trousers? What season? What colors?
If these are your requirements then go to Uniqlo and buy literally any pants they have
Assuming you live in the US, look out for good deals at Costco, if there's one near where you live.
But you don't see the issue with your criteria being the best looking longest lasting for the cheapest possible price?
things like fading, lasting, "deforming" can be mitigated by how you care for your stuff. not washing it in harsh chemicals, not tumble drying, etc
He's asking for a good deal. Maybe he doesn't have a lot of money to spend. What is wrong with that?
There's nothing wrong with it. Like I said, it's a balance between fashion and utility
I'm saying it's a tough ask and often you are making a compromise.
just buy 501s lmao
Those aren’t a good rec lol. They’ll deform with a wash, fade, and aren’t tapered
darn
It's because those companies have been producing cars with well-known design flaws. You check the Consumer Reports or the Kelly Blue Book and you'll find the similar answers.
Wonder what J.D. Power and Associates thinks about Orslow fatigues
Earlier you said you wanted to evolve out of Uniqlo, but everything you're describing can be had at Uniqlo
the fact you're saying these car brands have well known flaws when you're on a fashion server and don't know who issey miyake is 💀
which is exactly why I've been shopping at Uniqlo for the past few years
And there's nothing wrong with that!
I know what Issey Miyake is. I don't care for it.
I got some new pants from COS and Massimo Dutti and it feels like a real upgrade
nobody asks me where my Uniqlo pants are from 🥲
I'm just saying, if you knew who he was you wouldn't make a snarky comment about him using polyester
Elevated basics brands like cos are gonna look the same as Uniqlo to the average person
This
I don't think I've ever been asked where my basics are from. I get that the most with my Kapital fleece
If you want people to ask about your pants then wear obnoxiously loud pants
People are going to notice and ask about things that stand out, not about quality
"doesn't deform after washing"
this literally has nothing to do with the appearance of clothes bc clothes aren't going to deform after washing unless you intentionally fuck it up
like literally no amount of price points on a white tee shirt will change the fact it's a white tee shirt
pants meanwhile there's a world's difference between parachute pants or wool trousers
The only way to approach quality, imo, is to start with the end in mind. “I want a plain shirt that will look good and last me years”. Ok, look for a durable material.
“I want to look like the life of the party”. Ok, seek qualities that stand out.
“I want the warmest jacket for my overnight camping trip”. Ok, look for a combination of warmth and durable materials.
The only pants people have ever asked about were my Oni secret demon which won’t last as long as smoother denim fabrics bc of the cool texture
I find H&M tees do deform quickly
i think items tend to look cooler in a whole of the sum too tbh
fuck h&m lmao
pacun and h&m the only two brands i unironically hated wearing
Fussing about quality is overrated beyond not buying SHEIN, h+m, or similar
i feel like pricer brands to me really just mean they have cool items that uniqlo wouldn't have
i would never buy basic items from a more expensive brand bc i feel like im just losing the oppturnity to get the actual cool shit
Secret demon would've been way cooler than secret denim
Beyond that it’s all your taste and want you think is cool
😈
tbh i think that's the point
like you're basically describing that uniqlo is fine for the basics
but you're searching for higher-quality basics when you seem to be asking for beyond basics
Hey now I got some RCVA t shirts that I wore all through high school and those things were amazing 😂
look at corridor or abercrombie and window shop the unconventional stuff imo
or if minimalism is precisely what you want then i think you already know what you want, just that you would find it difficult to truly compare beside vibe checking
Doesn't sound especially objective
If there’s objective quality then just link the best clothing item
LORO PIANA 
Said the guy who said there was no such thing as objective quality and then listed objective quality traits.
"Almost like there are objective qualities you could measure but not one complete metric"
curious if, objectively speaking, anyone knows the objectively best, in terms of objective quality, oxford shoes to wear with chinos? low waisted, btw
I'll be honest nobody is going to ask where you got your pants from unless they are something pretty wild looking, which seems at odds with the rest of your wants.
I do kinda wonder what people are doing with their clothes to say that they are basically disintegrating constantly
I disagree with you there. For example in some more thechnical fields where quality is very measureable there is of course still a question of what sort of situation one is trying to solve
I hear you, I don't think that's what they were saying though
True, it does sometimes feel like a conversation about what is better a saw or a hammer
Wash hot tumble dry high
Do slim fit clothes last less time because you stretch them more? Much to think on
I ask people where their pants are from when they look shitty so I know where not to buy pants
I’ve only ever had one article of clothing fall apart prematurely and it was a pair of h&m skinny jeans that I ripped the ass out of after like five wears. The next day I went back and bought the exact same pair of pants and wore them for three years and then donated them
Yeah clothes literally falling apart is bad qc not the brand