If a job description lists salary range $x - y,...
If a job description lists salary range $x - y, what would you state as your salary expectation to be considered reasonable?
22 Replies
Thread automatically created by after.al in #🤔｜questions
stormy-gold•3mo ago
I normally pick dead on middle or median salary for my position and COL whichever is larger. I don't aim to max compensation though because my COL is low enough that I don't have to
I always aim for the high end, but YMMV
stormy-gold•3mo ago
That is a tactic, but as a lazy person who just will not do leetcode or any of that BS. My tactic is to be unimaginably cheap for my skill level. My lazy can defeat a lot of people's best. I value work/life balance over all and I have a COL situation that doesn't apply pressure to focus on money. It's definitely a different tactic, but It has netted me the ability to rapidly obtain jobs in my early career
That's a good tactic.
foreign-sapphire•3mo ago
When I see this I ask them what’s the difference between a candidate who gets paid the bottom of the range and one who gets paid the top. That gives you all sorts of great info for salary negotiation. It also tells you a lot about what they value.
That's an excellent idea.
extended-salmon•3mo ago
that's really clever
and really obvious in hindsight.
flat-fuchsia•3mo ago
Nooooo don't do that
Never. Ever. Give out the first number
Always say I'm open to an offer
You must learn the jujitsu of offer negotiation.
They're going to try really hard to get you to say a number. Don't. Learn how to deflect.
Blame it on your Girlfirend/Boyfriend/Dog/Father whatever
never give the first number
I should write a guide here on how to negotiate offers
I've gotten companies to go $50k+ over their original (cash) offer
I didn't work harder for those $50K
Remember, you earn your salary when you interview and negotiate.
You just show up to collect it
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter @Darling . I always tell people what I’m willing to accept. But again i always use a middleman and give a high number.
Well, high for me. I would love some negotiation tips.
stormy-gold•3mo ago
I give a number because I'm a woman. The science says we're punished for negotiating and that's been my experience. I've never met a woman who could win the negotiation game, so I don't play it.
I tell jobs the amount I want and I walk away if they don't like it. I've quit jobs immediately over not getting raises I'm very serious. My numbers are always fair and I've gotten over what I've asked for on multiple occasions. I guess that means I've left money on the table, but I make double what the average whole household does where I live. I just can't be bothered when I know from experience I get less from being aggressive
flat-fuchsia•3mo ago
I really should write that guide.
There is no such as a "fair" salary. The company isn't paying you that amount because they're nice or generous. They pay you that because that's what you're worth according to the market. Remember, they'll pay you minimum wage if they could 😉
The way you increase your market worth is to have a competing offers (BATNA). If you don't have a BATNA (Best Alternative to Negotiated Agreement), then you have no leverage. Get a few offers, and then negotiate. If they don't offer you what you want, then you are free to walk away.
Even if you don't have competing offers: A company has never in the history of time rescinded an offer because you asked for more. Ever. The worst they will say is that this is the max that we can do.
But I'll write the guide, which will hopefully help
stormy-gold•3mo ago
First off the jdea that a company wont rescind your offer if you ask for more is false. Once you have enough experience, sure, but in mu early career people "went with another candidate" because of asking price. But again I'm a POC woman. People literally dropped me as a candidate because of my hair style.
Another thing I need to express again is that it's not like I'm cheap. I'm too expensive for most local companies, but when competing nationally I pick my salary knowing that I dislike stress and I won't so leetcode, etc. It's a different strategy. While it hasn't netted le a 300K job even before OE I was perfectly capable of covering all my expenses in a single paycheck. Like for me money is not a driver and only recently became kind of a driver due to a mountain of medical bills due to an acclimation of 2 years of bad timing.
I tell my POV because I'm not the typical demographic. I give a number because even at my current level there are a single amount of employers who will actively try to low ball me. And pushing for more money makes them more stubborn about the number they anchored with. I've got 2 other female friends and this is their experience. For us, it's just better to give a number or have a man negotiate on your behalf. The only time I've ever gotten the experience you're talking about is when I sent a recruiter to do it for me.
flat-fuchsia•3mo ago
Are you a SWE? Do you know how much a company a company spends just to make you an offer? It's in the MANY thousands of dollars.
Think of how many very expensive engineering hours go into interviewing you by 4-6 engineers plus all the sources+recruiter time. Perhaps even a hiring committee or a compensation panel (if a large company)
I assure you, they're not going to rescind an offer because you ask for more. They might say no, but they won't rescind it. Feel free to ask your recruiter friends if you know any.
I'm a POC woman. People literally dropped me as a candidateI won't discount your experience. But will give you "the other side" if that makes sense. It's not to negate your experience though. I've been asked to interview for a junior engineer role, and me and another senior engineer were asked by our manager subtly that we'll be interviewing a female engineer, and that we're trying to increase diversity... That was it. he didn't ask us to hire her for that reason, but it was hinted at very clearly. That didn't sit too well with me, but thankfully, I didn't have to make the tough moral decision because she was extremely talented and we gave the two thumbs up to hire her. My point is that it might also be to your advantage in soommmeee situations at some companies.
stormy-gold•3mo ago
I am a SWE. And I understand what you're saying I'm just literally saying this is not my experience. It's not the experience of the 2 other female SWEs I know. It's not even my experience on the other side since I 100% have seen my companies drop a candidate for a salary throw out.
Maybe this is because I don't tend to work for F500 or FAANG/FAANG-adjacent.
Perhaps now the market is not so sexist, but again I doubt it based several things. Yes, I'm extremely good, but I've found that when I get top of pay range for any given company it's like they have a grudge for me even if I can manage to get it. So I pick places where 150K is middle or lower and carry on. I don't want to fight a bias. I want to work without stress.
I'll add to this that while everyone wants diversity now. This was not the case beforem I've been in this game for 15 years. People assume I'm far more junior than I am. They assume I didn't get there of my own merit. And they treat and want to pay this like that. It's why I honestly prefer getting jobs via referral
Yeah, that's no fun and unfair.
Yes, please.
We always can all learn something from each other.
Think of how many very expensive engineering hours go into interviewing you by 4-6 engineers plus all the sources+recruiter time. Perhaps even a hiring committee or a compensation panel (if a large company)Dude, I've worked at companies that took 3 C-level meetings and 2 written proposals to approve a $99 font package that our fucking VP of development was the one who asked for it. 😛 One of my issues is to determine even if the pay band is right up front. It's not worth my time to go through an entire interview process, get to offer, and they're like "we'd like to offer you $130K." when my absolute minimum for my experience/what I'm even willing to entertain is $200K. due to having a lot of experience
quickest-silver•3mo ago
TOP of the range, always
wow this is smart
can't you just say you have a competing offer even if you dont? They don't ask to see the other offer do they?
Of course. The point is, are you willing to risk your offer? With OE, that answer is more likely yes than if you're a 1Jer.
foreign-sapphire•3mo ago
You can but it’s a very common lie that a recruiter hears all the time. They’ll know.
I once worked in a healthcare setting where I had to ask people if they were pregnant. I could always tell when they were lying. When you do it every day, you can tell.
(It was common. I’m not the doctor or a nurse. What woman wants to share that with some strange guy?)
rare-sapphire•3mo ago
Some insight on the hiring manager side of things here - at least for companies with 300+ employees. Think Hubspot, Zendesk, etc. Tier and above.
If they have a highly structured interview process, actually give a shit about DEI to make the interview process objective, or have a detailed answer to calculating your salary, then they may straight up not negotiate base salary because it messes with their raises. The goal is to align objective evaluation with the incentives of the internal career progression system.
I've done this plenty of times because if I change someone's base, our performance review system may not give them a raise for skill growth for years because we tie salary to one's skill level.
So you have to get creative on what you can negotiate. Those details are usually:
* Sign on Bonus
* Equity comp
Now, you can figure this all out based on DataGeek's approach above: https://discord.com/channels/1181304501999784027/1217489514616979557/1217566768566894652
so i usually just say something like "i know there's a salary range for this role and it's based on my interview performance. Tell me the range and I'll tell you if it's in the range i'm looking for."
It's more direct, but i've had zero issue with this response.