it's a rather complicated question considering how easy it is to fling a joystick around compared to

it's a rather complicated question considering how easy it is to fling a joystick around compared to real controls and make the planes do some really funky stuff

Bob Bushman•5/29/24, 12:39 PM

Grover•5/29/24, 12:39 PM

Sometimes I regret I even thought about trying to understand the controls system and making them 'realistic'.

AAndyHill it's a rather complicated question considering how easy it is to fling a joystic...

Grover•5/29/24, 12:40 PM

Oh yes, that's why it's there, but that's for the non-FFB users

They don't know how to use the force

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:41 PM

what setting should FFB users have?

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:41 PM

of course I don't think my Rhino setup can give me 30kg of pull so is there still room for modeling pilot limits?

Number481•5/29/24, 12:42 PM

in general, I love it... my one suggestion (for all of the $0.02 its worth) would be to add some (or some extra) dampening to the bobweight effect around 1G.. maybe its realistic as is but it seems... bouncy?

Grover•5/29/24, 12:42 PM

But also that's true - my initial assumption was that in real life no one would break so many wings so easily because it would require some effort measured in pounds of force (or Newtons for more sane unit system users)

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:42 PM

in addition to the stick being rather heavy, real pilots have other subtle cues tellint them that what they're trying to do might not be perfectly reasonable

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:43 PM

like losing consciousness and such

AAndyHill in addition to the stick being rather heavy, real pilots have other subtle cues ...

Number481•5/29/24, 12:46 PM

hmm... FFB blood pressure cuff around the neck might be a good way to simulate it

Grover•5/29/24, 12:46 PM

Oh it is bouncy and my understanding is that it was bouncy. That's one of the aspects I wanted to address in that longer article about the control systems. Some of the flight characteristics of the aircraft - I mean pitch stability related - isn't pure aerodynamics or even STAB AUG - it comes from the control system + pilot 'interference'. So IMO you can't achieve proper aircraft stability in simulation without addressing how the controls impact that. And the reports show that it shouldn't be neglected.

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:48 PM

I think a cuff around the balls might be very effective

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:49 PM

anyway for me the F-4 force feedback was fascinating from the start, I loved how I felt the plane talk to me all the time, I just had absolutely no idea of what it was like in reality

Grover•5/29/24, 12:49 PM

Also that's why I think the real life pilots have less problems and less complaints because they are more fluent at controlling the aircraft and then those inertia/G effects on the controls are less annoying. While we, the happy flight sim users doing RedBull-like-air-races-through-the-hangars-and-landing-on-a-dam, we like to yank the controls left right up and down.

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:50 PM

and for us the ffb stick is usually the only thing giving any kind of physical feedback at all, whereas real pilots are absolutely flooded with all kinds of sensations while maneuvering

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:50 PM

btw what do the force gain controls in the special menu actually do?

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:51 PM

do they increase the forces (up to what point) or do they just make the system stronger at the lower end and max out earlier?

Grover•5/29/24, 12:51 PM

just a plain multiplcation applied to the force gradients

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:52 PM

is there a maximum value it'll do?

Grover•5/29/24, 12:52 PM

Because, as I wrote previosly, this is all what we have when communicating the FFB related values to DCS

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:52 PM

my religion mandates that I fiddle with every setting everywhere and especially try to max out everything

AAndyHill is there a maximum value it'll do?

Grover•5/29/24, 12:53 PM

No, there isn't, but I think there's some cap, but I don't know if it's DCS, Microsoft, or manufacturer driver side

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:53 PM

I think there's a limit at the very least at DirectX end

Grover•5/29/24, 12:53 PM

I'd think there is

GGrover No, there isn't, but I think there's some cap, but I don't know if it's DCS, Mic...

Number481•5/29/24, 12:54 PM

the max coefficient on an FFB device is 4096... my testing of the roll gain was that anything around %300 maxes it out.. similarly %300 on pitch makes the force max out pretty quickly at any speed

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:55 PM

oh crap I need to be playing football in 3 minutes

AndyHillOP•5/29/24, 12:55 PM

figure out the perfect settings for my specific system while I'm away

Grover•5/29/24, 12:56 PM

Anyways, I hope we can find some cool ways to do some direct communication to the stick, and also as soon as I have the Rhino, I'll tune all default values knowing the details of the implementation of the F-4E, share it, and then continue discussing with you to optimise it and find the best values, or different sets of value, for the best realism and/or feel

GGrover Anyways, I hope we can find some cool ways to do some direct communication to th...

Number481•5/29/24, 12:58 PM

I hope you've reached out to walmis

Grover•5/29/24, 1:01 PM

Oh yeah, I DM-ed @walmis earlier this week, and we're on it

so big thank you

Grover•5/29/24, 1:04 PM

And also to make it clear, our implementation of the controls for the F-14 was made by fat creason, same as the FM - but I'll also take a look on how we can make it improve your experience with the F-14 - yet I'll start from the F-4E as I have much more detailed knowledge about that.

Grover•5/29/24, 1:28 PM

Before I return to coding, just thought I could drop another chart I saved as a reference. The test pilot was tasked to pull the stick and then return to the pre-pull position. The stick position plot is a bit squeezed to read, but look at the stabilator position and how it keeps oscillating for over 10 seconds after the pull up. Please note, that it's with stab. aug OFF, so all those oscillations must come from the pitch controls (including the feel trim).

Grover•5/29/24, 1:30 PM

That's the result of using bobweights - you trade better (higher) force gradients with G for more inertia making the oscillations more pronounced

Number481•5/29/24, 1:40 PM

Man.. it must have been a real trip to fly that airplaine IRL

Boggy•5/29/24, 1:51 PM

GarrafaBr•5/29/24, 3:50 PM

Does anyone have a seat belt tensioner? Is it worth it? Does it adds to immersion for flying (g forces)?

Red Magic•5/29/24, 4:03 PM

I feel like a lot of the low speed slop complaints could be resolved with adding more potential torque to the stick base as well. Then these low ft-lb %s can still provide easy stick "centering" without making any sacrifices in creating force gradients (curves) and clipping at the high ends

GGrover Before I return to coding, just thought I could drop another chart I saved as a ...

Touch_Of_Legend•5/29/24, 4:16 PM

I just want to say Thank you for all you do and continue to do for the community.

Can’t wait to see what you do with the Rhino so welcome to the Family

Fletch•5/29/24, 8:16 PM

Gotst me invoice today and just paid it. Looking forward to ffb stick for DCS helis!

VPforceBot•5/30/24, 8:11 AM

:package:

RHINO #0559 Has Shipped!

VPforceBot•5/30/24, 9:01 AM

:package:

RHINO #0560 Has Shipped!

VPforceBot•5/30/24, 10:27 AM

:package:

RHINO #0561 Has Shipped!

Grover•5/30/24, 3:07 PM

1, 2, 3, radio check... am I red? am I red? I'm red, yay

GGrover 1, 2, 3, radio check... am I red? am I red? I'm red, yay 🙌

Touch_Of_Legend•5/30/24, 6:41 PM

Hell yeah welcome to the family

Touch_Of_Legend•5/30/24, 6:41 PM

(Greens are DIY builds)

SR-F_Winger_[73]_David•5/30/24, 7:28 PM

Hi guys. One DIY kit is ready to ship if anyone is interrested shoot me a pm.
Here is a pic of the asembled unit. Only diffrence is the kit in question doesnt have carbon surface finish but texured PEI finish.
Kit comes with everything you need to build your own Rhino except for the Motor kit wich is available a Walmis VPForce store.
Gimbal comes completely preassembled. All wiring is preassembled with exception for the motor powercables wich come with the motor kit.

SR-F_Winger_[73]_David•5/30/24, 7:30 PM

GGrover 1, 2, 3, radio check... am I red? am I red? I'm red, yay 🙌

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/30/24, 8:24 PM

You work for HB?

WWhereNoLarkFlew You work for HB?

Grover•5/30/24, 8:35 PM

Aye!

SwiftVengeance•5/30/24, 8:53 PM

Hi, does anyone have a virpil grip or collective. Im trying to figure out how the virpil bases communicate buttons and analog positions with the grips. well I know the buttons are through cd4021b shift registers but im not sure about the throttle axis. maybe they use a spi adc? or maybe I dont have to worry about that because its done in the base when the connector gets twisted?

it's a rather complicated question considering how easy it is to fling a joystick around compared to

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