@7hoshino The Rhino uses the 57 type motors. A base with the larger motors is on my roadmap, but mea

@7hoshino The Rhino uses the 57 type motors. A base with the larger motors is on my roadmap, but meanwhile the larger ones are available as a kit to anyone willing to build mechanics of their own.

Wwalmis @7hoshino The Rhino uses the 57 type motors. A base with the larger motors is on...

原

原子力Hoshino•5/28/22, 9:10 PM

Roger. thx. looking forward to the bigger one

Flashgod_VR•5/29/22, 6:14 AM

@7hoshino don't underestimate the power of the 57ers

AndyHill•5/29/22, 10:49 AM

what limits the torque so that continuous is 0.6 whereas peak is 1.6? Components overheating?

walmisOP•5/29/22, 10:53 AM

Motor windings most likely - this parameter is from motor manufacturer. This is probably without any active cooling.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 10:54 AM

what are the main wear and tear problems for ffb in general? For normal sticks I'm guessing springs and cam bearings and stuff like that, but what's the main worry for ffb?

AndyHill•5/29/22, 10:55 AM

Also if you want a lot of strength out of an FFB system, how much can reduction gearing help?

walmisOP•5/29/22, 10:59 AM

I can't think of any actually, there are no wearing parts (Apart for the leather boot on the Rhino LOL). Bearings and motors should last a lifetime if driven within specs. A blown MOSFET could be one failure point, but that should not happen normally.

Gearing helps a lot, since it multiplies the torque directly - for example 5:1 gearing will generate 5Nm with 1Nm motor.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:02 AM

Gearing of course lowers the speed the stick can move itself, but does that have a meaningful effect when you're just trying to generate force right then and there?

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:03 AM

as I mentioned I'm working on a review thing for ~600€ sticks and I have the vkb and winwing here with the virpil arriving next week

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:03 AM

it's kind of scary looking at how small the cam plates and other parts are

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:04 AM

I know enough physics to get a bit sweaty when I look at a ~30cm lever pumping force into parts that are a few cm at best

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:06 AM

Also are those motors brushless? My experience with brushless motors is from model planes and at least the early ones occasionally had problems with phasing if you so much as looked at them the wrong way, I suppose these ones are designed to take the rough handling

Mike (Mugs)•5/29/22, 11:10 AM

I have had them all, and in the end i want friction force and damping to replicate control feel from real airframes, from low stick forces like the yak to hydraulic and up to eddy dampers used for qfeel in f18 etc, ony the tech in devices i the brunner or rhino can currently do this, and the brunner cant sustain peak force like the rhino

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:10 AM

The stick movement speed is not an issue - since we are talking about 0.5-2 motor revolutions per stick range. Yeah motors are brushless, controlled by Field Oriented Control (FOC) with absolute position feedback (non-contact), so that is completely different drive strategy than RC stuff

It provides smooth torque in any rotational position. Also I have implemented a magnetic cogging elimination algorithm, so it makes the motors response very smooth, without the magnetic "bumps" you can feel when turning an unpowered motor.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:11 AM

ok yeah that's interesting

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:11 AM

btw did I understand correctly that Brunner don't use gearing? If so, why do you think that is?

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:12 AM

They do

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:12 AM

I have a few pics

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:13 AM

Mike (Mugs)•5/29/22, 11:13 AM

Oh and Their hi end cls-p which can do 50N-m is 10k

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:14 AM

I wouldn't even dare touch something like that

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:15 AM

But why are they direct drive, with my limited understanding that sounds like a strange tradeoff to make

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:16 AM

They do have gearing, you can see a small pulley on the motor, and a larger gear in the pics above.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:16 AM

yeah that's what it did look like to me, but I wasn't sure

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:16 AM

hard to say the teeth ratio, but could be ~1:3

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:17 AM

what would you say software support for ffb is like at the moment?

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:18 AM

are there common interfaces with reasonable capability and do games provide good ffb stuffs commonly?

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:21 AM

There is USB PID standard for FFB devices which DirectInput supports, so games have native FFB - such as DCS, IL2, etc. Sadly MSFS2020 doesn't have FFB, but could be added with XPForce plugin. FFB can also be implemented as a plugin/extension with telemetry from the sim.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:21 AM

wait msfs has no ffb?

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:22 AM

Nah, they didn't add it, strange.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:22 AM

I thought msfs series was the king in exports and devices

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

Microsoft even left out their MSFFB users

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

I still have one of those things somewhere

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

But that's a 20 year old device, so probably forgotten by now

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

it should be, shouldn't it?

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

but it isn't

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

I mean by microsoft

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:23 AM

there hasn't exactly been that much in ffb stuffs

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:24 AM

people still use it, mod it, etc

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:24 AM

because there hasn't been a lot going on in the ffb market

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:24 AM

Yeah, steering wheels on the other hand...

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:24 AM

the msffb2 should be as outdated as a cougar is

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:25 AM

well I just started the process of replacing a modified cougar, but that's me

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:26 AM

it's interesting to see just how much these modern sticks try to disguise the springy feel of springs with cams and dampers and stuffs

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:28 AM

The FFB has a cool thing that you can simulate any dynamics you want - you can add springs, dampers, friction, inertia(weight), and tune those to your liking

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:29 AM

how good are the games at actually simulating the feel of airflow against control surfaces?

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:29 AM

also am I correct in thinking that (if you had enough power) you could simulate exactly the feel of any aircraft controller ever except for force sensing ones

walmisOP•5/29/22, 11:33 AM

I only tried DCS atm, but it's a bit lacking in that department. Maybe with more FFB interest ED will dedicate more time to it. I heard IL2 has good FFB support.
Well, given proper maths anything is possible to send to the device

And yes, with enough powerful system and proper FFB flight model you could simulate the feel of real aircraft.

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:34 AM

the maths is the question, isn't it

AndyHill•5/29/22, 11:35 AM

although in principle if a game is doing blade element stuff, shouldn't it already have a pretty good idea of what kind of forces are acting on a surface and then you'd just calculate the pulley systems attaching the controllers to the surfaces?

@7hoshino The Rhino uses the 57 type motors. A base with the larger motors is on my roadmap, but mea

Similar Threads

Similar Threads

Similar Threads