Looks like XPforce could be generating the wrong direction (180deg), 180 deg would be full back, but

Looks like XPforce could be generating the wrong direction (180deg), 180 deg would be full back, but perhaps MSFFB2 has this inverted

Wwalmis Looks like XPforce could be generating the wrong direction (180deg), 180 deg wou...

roller25.•12/8/22, 8:43 AM

Would that be maybe why in DCS you have to check "swap axis" with the MSFFB2 stick?

walmisOP•12/8/22, 8:43 AM

It's possible

roller25.•12/8/22, 8:44 AM

The forces are correct in the air in MSFS2020 with xpforce. Its only on the ground with acceleration forces and elevator droop that the forces are inverted.

C6_lefuneste•12/8/22, 11:21 AM

I had also some very very very strong force pitch oscillation in flight with the CTLS in FS2020. I wonder if there is an issue when you have an axis inverted in the sim (like I do for my DIY Rhino mount), force effect may be not inverted as the axis in the flight sim...

walmisOP•12/8/22, 11:30 AM

Yeah, XPforce does generate some unstable feedback. Instead of Constant Force it should modulate spring center point to simulate AoA, else it becomes an unstable feedback loop.
Reducing this slider and increasing damping should help.

walmisOP•12/8/22, 11:33 AM

Now testing MSFS a bit, and indeed the AoA feedback is correct, but the stick droop is inverted on the ground. It uses the same "constant effect" for both AoA/stick droop effects.

aclen.•12/8/22, 1:21 PM

So great to have this looked at properly. Perhaps I don't notice the back stick droop on MSFF2 in C172/MSFS because of the way the stick is balanced -- i.e. the force is relatively light and if you flop the stick forward it generally stays there.

I really appreciate this attention to detail @walmis, Thank you!

walmisOP•12/8/22, 1:30 PM

On the other hand according to this app the vanilla Rhino is inverted, force goes toward the dot, instead of from the dot towards the center. I'll try to invert the axis and test it in MSFS.

... But then in the air it might be a problem, since if you pull AoA, the stick will try to pull even more, instead of resisting.
So I'm starting to believe this could still be a bug in XPforce.

walmisOP•12/8/22, 6:43 PM

Tried inverted direction, so on the ground it's now ok, droops foward, but when flying it's inverted now lol. When you pull G the stick moves to pull even more G

Boggy•12/8/22, 6:49 PM

Walmis, will a thrustmaster Warthog extension fit a Rhino? Is the connector the same diameter and thread?

walmisOP•12/8/22, 6:50 PM

Yep, it's the same thrustmaster connector

Wwalmis On the other hand according to this app the vanilla Rhino is inverted, force goe...

roller25.•12/8/22, 6:59 PM

Unfortunately I don't think that will be looked at for quite some time either. The developer is MIA.

SSwiftVengeance What did you mean by dead pedal here?

原

原子力Hoshino•12/8/22, 11:58 PM

pedals that don't move at all

SwiftVengeance•12/9/22, 12:06 AM

Oh, so not even the 1 inch of travel, just the pedals connected directly to load cell?

SSwiftVengeance Oh, so not even the 1 inch of travel, just the pedals connected directly to load...

原

原子力Hoshino•12/9/22, 12:11 AM

yeah maybe like the original F-16 stick. but no production aircraft uses neither now

原原子力Hoshino yeah maybe like the original F-16 stick. but no production aircraft uses neither...

SwiftVengeance•12/9/22, 12:14 AM

Where did you find that pdf? Is there anymore more info about aircraft controls that I can read?

SSwiftVengeance Where did you find that pdf? Is there anymore more info about aircraft controls ...

原

原子力Hoshino•12/9/22, 12:21 AM

ADA324124: Stick and Feel System Design, https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA324124 link of the pdf is inside
I was stumble upon it when I was searching for some F-16 or 18 stick related info

sorry that's the only overview doc I have on flight controls

DTIC

Stick and Feel System Design (Systemes de Restitution des Efforts a...

Since the earliest days of manned flight, designers have to sought to assist the pilot in the performance of tasks by using stick and feel systems to bring these tasks within the bounds of human physical capabilities. This volume describes stick and feel systems in two parts. Part one describes the technologies which have been developed througho...

SwiftVengeance•12/9/22, 12:30 AM

Alright thank you

SwiftVengeance•12/9/22, 12:32 AM

Best resource on this subject so far

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 9:11 AM

I hope this is the right place to ask but is the Rhino FFB progressed enough so that a beginner flight simmer and non technical flight person could buy and enjoy? I have posted on Reddit and most say x52 and x56 are junk and to go virpil or vkb. Now I’ve discovered Rhino which seems better because of ffb. My main aim is to fly helicopters but also fixed wing like a10 and f14

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 9:13 AM

I’ve played dcs many years ago and got good with blackshark. But my old x52 I’ve got down from the loft is sticky and not nice to use

walmisOP•12/9/22, 9:18 AM

Hi, well while the Rhino has many configuration options to tweak it to hearts desires it's also easy to use too, it's preconfigured out of the box, so you can just plug the USB and power, start DCS and it will be good to go!

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 9:24 AM

What are the lead times from ordering to delivery in the UK? What table mounts is it compatible with? Thanks for replying so soon

walmisOP•12/9/22, 9:52 AM

Sadly it's pretty long currently, but still working on speeding it up

Boggy•12/9/22, 9:57 AM

Sorry if this has been asked before (I searched but didnt find the answer) but can you set the Rhino up as a force sensing stick too, like an F16 stick?

walmisOP•12/9/22, 9:59 AM

It will be possible to add such feature in the future software update, but it won't be "true" force sensing

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 11:51 AM

What is the rough lead time for a rhino? Weeks, months or over a year wait?

walmisOP•12/9/22, 11:52 AM

Expect 6-12 months, though I hope to accelerate production by then

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 11:55 AM

Ok thanks. Do I just join the queue via the web link in your faq? I’ll have to buy a virpil base in the interim

walmisOP•12/9/22, 12:03 PM

Yep, it's reserve.vpforce.eu

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 12:04 PM

Thank you

CCraptakulaR Ok thanks. Do I just join the queue via the web link in your faq? I’ll have to b...

Anthony•12/9/22, 12:15 PM

If you’re gonna get a Rhino, I’d say settle for a cheap Saitek thing in the meantime

Anthony•12/9/22, 12:16 PM

No point buying an expensive Virpil base that you’ll just use for a year tops before getting a much more expensive (though by all indications very much worth it) Rhino

jubuttib•12/9/22, 12:17 PM

Counterargument: A Virpil or VKB will retain their value a lot better on the second hand market.

Also if it's a stop gap, get a VKB Gladiator EVO. Easily the best bang for buck by a long margin.

jubuttib•12/9/22, 12:18 PM

And you can later turn it into another stick for a HOSAS, or the radar stick on the Viggen, etc. And they also retain their value nicely.

Frenchy•12/9/22, 12:19 PM

I turned my VKB base into a collective, works great

jubuttib•12/9/22, 12:31 PM

That too!

AAnthony If you’re gonna get a Rhino, I’d say settle for a cheap Saitek thing in the mean...

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 12:36 PM

yeah good point, might be more sensible to buy an x56 as an interim. That way i get a throttle too while i wait for the Rhino and once ready I will get a virpil throttle

Frenchy•12/9/22, 12:39 PM

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 12:45 PM

I have joined the que for a Rhino

I might just buy the virpil basic base with a grip. The grip I can reuse with the Rhino

Anthony•12/9/22, 12:50 PM

It'll retain more value, sure

Anthony•12/9/22, 12:50 PM

But not nearly enough to make up for the loss compared to getting a cheap crap stick while you're waiting

jubuttib•12/9/22, 12:52 PM

I mean an EVO is significantly cheaper than an X56, and if you intend to get a Virpil throttle anyway then why not get that from the get go?

A cheap crap stick for like 50 bucks or under would be one thing, but if you're paying Saitek money anyway, why not get something that costs the same/less and is better?

jubuttib•12/9/22, 1:04 PM

Basically what I'm saying is that Saiteks are overpriced.

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 1:04 PM

Hhmmm ok the EVO is 160 euro without vat roughly but I’d still need a throttle

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 1:05 PM

I want to get thrustmater TPR pedals to make learning the blackshark again much easier this time around

jubuttib•12/9/22, 1:05 PM

You're intending to get the Virpil throttle, any reason not to go for that now?

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 1:06 PM

I’m having to spend money on my house roof and need to save money to replace windows next year also

jubuttib•12/9/22, 1:06 PM

Ach.

CraptakulaR•12/9/22, 1:07 PM

So didn’t want to spend £1000 initial

Looks like XPforce could be generating the wrong direction (180deg), 180 deg would be full back, but

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