I've been following discussions in this channel fairly consistently and I'm confused by "starting po

I've been following discussions in this channel fairly consistently and I'm confused by "starting point" because everyone else was ironing out how to structure the project such that Main functions as a unified template for all of the official AND unofficial images, and the diagram they used, which you created, supported that.

I do think that documentation was/is/should be a priority on the to-do list for Main, but I don't see what would be different from Main in "starting point"

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:03 PM

Of course, anything I say can be overridden by the people I'm trying to indirectly relay information from, if I misunderstood something

CChaiQi I've been following discussions in this channel fairly consistently and I'm conf...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:05 PM

The graph I created specifically included a starting point, and as far as I know nobody was complaining then. As far as I knew, Main was supposed to be just an upstream image, but apparently it actually was not and was intended to be multipurpose.

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:06 PM

Maybe I misremembered the diagram or it was maybe interpreted multiple ways, I'm looking for a copy to refresh my memory

CChaiQi Maybe I misremembered the diagram or it was maybe interpreted multiple ways, I'm...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:06 PM

https://ublue.it/architecture/

Marco (马可)•3/4/23, 3:07 PM

I think overall a lot of this can be avoided if we do more consensus seeking and PRs for reviews

Jj0rge @hermmm "Architecture" would be better instead of structure

xyny•3/4/23, 3:07 PM

Changed it! See above link

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:07 PM

oh
I think I see what went weird

Marco (马可)•3/4/23, 3:08 PM

I’m going to fill in branch protections everywhere but even Jorge does everything via PRs for reviews and it’s a standard we should embrace

MMarco (马可)I think overall a lot of this can be avoided if we do more consensus seeking and...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:08 PM

Well, yeah. The bane of an open source multi-person project. Heh.

xyny•3/4/23, 3:09 PM

Startingpoint was a new repo though, so nothing to PR to.

xyny•3/4/23, 3:09 PM

Yall should probably remove my write access to the website though.

Marco (马可)•3/4/23, 3:09 PM

But checking in this discord first could solve a lot of headache

Marco (马可)•3/4/23, 3:09 PM

Or a discussion to outline the goal and purpose

Marco (马可)•3/4/23, 3:09 PM

In GitHub

MMarco (马可)But checking in this discord first could solve a lot of headache

xyny•3/4/23, 3:10 PM

I just happen to be active at times many other people are not. Except for the people seeking help with their custom images of course, who get many conflicting sources of info.

Marco (马可)•3/4/23, 3:10 PM

That’s why we have GitHub discussions!

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:11 PM

I interpreted the "starting point" box as a categorical representation that any of the above could be forked as the basis of a custom image, rather than one concrete "starting point" repo.

I think the former makes more sense because it allows people to fork custom images from any point in the modular inheritance they want to, including the bare-bones upstream main, rather than all starting from one bare-bones template identical to the upstream main

Either way, I'm glad that the communication snag maybe got found so it can be addressed

MMarco (马可)That’s why we have GitHub discussions! 😀

xyny•3/4/23, 3:13 PM

but then I would've had to ask yesterday for what I did today, and I didn't have time for that, so I couldn't have done it today, so I wouldn't have done it this week,...
in the end, it's a new repo, I didn't do anything that breaks things. I went with the lazy concensus https://ublue.it/CONTRIBUTING/#i-want-to-contribute

xyny•3/4/23, 3:14 PM

The concept of “lazy consensus” is very important in your project. Lazy consensus means that when you are convinced that you know what the community would like to see happen, you can assume that you have consensus in favor of the proposed work and can get on with it. You don’t have to insist people discuss and/or approve your plan, and you certainly don’t need to call a vote to get approval. You just assume you have the community’s support unless someone says otherwise.

CChaiQi I interpreted the "starting point" box as a categorical representation that any ...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:18 PM

I view the approach of somebody being encouraged to fork any other uBlue image as a base for their own custom container image for just doing a couple of tweaks way more confusing, than having a clearly simple documented single-purpose template repository.

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:20 PM

The trouble with that view is that it breaks half of the purpose of the Ublue inheritance tree after the current restructuring, because it somewhat forces everyone who wants to make a custom image to start entirely from scratch and duplicate 80% of the Ublue project effort instead of just making a few tweaks

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:20 PM

Making just a few tweaks to get what you want is only possible if you can choose where you want to start from

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:20 PM

personally im not sure there is any point for startingpoint repo imo

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:21 PM

And I know it should still be possible to start from wherever you want, but the guidance to a separate branch "made for starting from" could do more damage than good just psychologically

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:22 PM

honestly in many ways main serves the same purpose

xyny•3/4/23, 3:23 PM

Also another hypothetical issue with Main being the template:
Say I want to layer Libreoffice in the native container, need Nvidia drivers, but don't want automatic updates for Flatpaks. I fork main and switch the upstream to the Nvidia image of my choosing, add in Libreoffice, all good. Then I disable automatic updates for flatpaks by instead of copying all RPMs from

ublue-os/config

ublue-os/config

just copying the ones I want.
That's where I go wrong! The Nvidia image is based on the main image, which already includes the automatic updates. To get rid of them, I actually have to imperatively remove them. There's no clear reason for that, after all, I forked and created a different main that doesn't add automatic updates. It's confusing.
The alternative; a barebones starting point where those options are not added, but you are provided instructions on what to add to the Containerfile to disable them.

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:24 PM

i disagree

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:25 PM

you can always start from main, basically starting point is essentially main without opinions

CChaiQi The trouble with that view is that it breaks half of the purpose of the Ublue in...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:26 PM

I actually view that the startingpoint's point is so that you don't have to duplicate the effort. Since you set FROM as an uBlue image, you get everything included in that. Since the starting point is created for the sole purpose of customizing the uBlue images, it should be easy to just add a couple of packages.

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:26 PM

...
the furthest upstream Ublue image is Main

BBigpod you can always start from main, basically starting point is essentially main wit...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:26 PM

It serves essentially a completely different purpose for the end-user.

CChaiQi ... the furthest upstream Ublue image is Main

xyny•3/4/23, 3:26 PM

yes?

Xxyny It serves essentially a completely different purpose for the end-user.

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:27 PM

define end-user

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:27 PM

If you set FROM as the furthest upstream Ublue image with the absolute minimum added to it

then you are setting it to Main. You are bypassing starting point entirely and using Main.

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:28 PM

The only thing starting point could do to add less is use the upstream Red Hat image

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:28 PM

becuase for most ublue end users starting point wont even be a blip, for those that it will they will be tinkers for whom using it wont mean a thing of difference between using it or going and forking main

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:28 PM

Which would just be using the Red Hat image instead of Ublue

BBigpod define end-user

xyny•3/4/23, 3:29 PM

somebody just wanting to install fedora silverblue on their computer who wants to have ublues autoupdates / drivers and other tweaks

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:29 PM

They rebase to Main, or the QoL downstream.

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:29 PM

and if you wanna go into that indepth tinkering you should think about going to upstream

Xxyny somebody just wanting to install fedora silverblue on their computer who wants t...

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:29 PM

most such somebodies will go for main

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:31 PM

or fork main and remove those few bits that they dont want, starting point makes no sense unless you are tinkerer but at that point you are likely to want to either fork main if you wanna go that indepth or go upstream in this case actual fedora silverblue and pull in ublue changes you like

CChaiQi They rebase to Main, or the QoL downstream.

xyny•3/4/23, 3:31 PM

They do, but ahh, then they learn a bit about containers, and want to add some of their own packages there, host a bit of their configuration inside the os container, maybe install and SDDM theme by including it in their container. Now they've got to create their own container image. What's better? An image made specifically for that purpose, or an image made for the purpose of including the common uBlue QoL tweaks being a template on the side.

Xxyny They do, but ahh, then they learn a bit about containers, and want to add some o...

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:31 PM

then they fork main and build on that

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:32 PM

? ^^^
That's not how inheritance works

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:32 PM

main is specifically built to build uppon

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:32 PM

CChaiQi The only thing starting point could do to add less is use the upstream Red Hat i...

xyny•3/4/23, 3:32 PM

Starting point is not intended to be an image to consume, it shouldn't do anything. It's a starting point for somebody to create their own image.

ChaiQiOP•3/4/23, 3:32 PM

So you want to specifically create the only un-bootable image by breaking the template so it is a better abstract template

Bigpod•3/4/23, 3:33 PM

main serves the same pupose

I've been following discussions in this channel fairly consistently and I'm confused by "starting po

Similar Threads

Similar Threads

Similar Threads