Sportcoat fit opinions
Hey All,
Just received this sportcoat from Spier and Mackay in a 40R and wanted some feedback on the fit.
To my eye I think the following are off:
1. Shoulders are too wide, leading to ripples in the sleeve
2. Sleeves are too long (easily fixable, but pointless due to shoulder fit)
3. Hips are a bit too tight, perhaps the waist is too. I look very curvy for lack of a better term
4. Length is a bit too short
Would love your opinions as I’m weighing sending this back and perhaps pursuing MTM somewhere. Thoughts?
79 Replies
Shoulder is too broad u right. I think it isnt pulling in the front so i suppose the tapered waist isn’t your preference. For a slim fitting jacket, the shorter length is what i expected. I looked at spier size chart, the length of the jacket in my size is 1 to 1.5 inch shorter than what i like as well
I’m team size up - in the side profile pic it looks like the lapels aren’t laying flat and it looks a bit snug in the waist/hips. Spier’s stuff tends to run a touch small, and a little big in the shoulders is fine with their style.
I think the length is good - it ends at the fork if not just a touch beyond it. A long would probably be too long for you. It probably wouldn’t hurt to try a long next time, but either way, definitely worth trying a 42.
The Armoury has a great video on how jackets should fit - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FtGQo0qmX2w
The Armoury
YouTube
How Should a Suit Fit? The Armoury Breaks Down How a Suit Should Fit
How Should A Suit Fit | Mark Cho and Alan See of The Armoury discuss how your suit should fit and what we look for in an ideal silhouette.
Idk, unless that is an extended shoulder, size up gonna make it big? The cut prob not for him imo
I tried a 42R prior (different material, same cut) and found it way too wide in the shoulders, particularly given the more natural shoulder of Spier’s Neo cut. Talking enormous divots from every angle. Unfortunate because the price point is so nice
Agreed an L would likely be too long and probably require sleeves to be shortened from the shoulder. Tough sell
I may go to the Armoury at some point, it’s not too far from where I live and probably worth it just to try on some of their cuts and get fitted more accurately
Leaning toward this isn’t the right cut for me. Maybe I need to stray away from Neapolitan cuts with very natural shoulders, I can’t seem to fill them out haha. May also be that Spier’s contemporary cut is also still too slim for me too in order to alleviate what I don’t like about the waist
Their tweed jackets never fit me right compared to the lighter fabrics I have from them
Truly a shame, they always look so nice. Particularly these herringbones
I have the same problem - shoulders are narrower than the traditional size
remind me of jomers business models
wide range of fabric, but the cut and sometimes qc not there
Wow, now that’s a name I haven’t heard of in a long time
Jomers blows don’t bother
I’m also team size up
The button is pulling and the lapels aren’t laying right. The sleeve pitch might be wrong as the sleeves issue.
You mention MTM, do you have a budget?
Haha no I wouldn’t, I just remember a time when frugalmalefashion was clamoring for them
I can see the argument for sizing up - I think it’d help the waist and hip fit a ton. I guess what I can’t square up though is the fact that it would also just continue to throw the shoulder fit off
Budget for MTM is fairly flexible. I don’t really have a jacket wardrobe at the moment, so I don’t wanna funnel a ton, but also could see myself using something versatile like this a bunch. Perhaps up to $2000
$2k for a jacket or a full suit?
Either way prolly a job for @gimp
I think in this case, just a jacket. Would be open to full suit, and could potentially throw a bit more in, but would try to go for something other than tweed herringbone. Let’s say for this exercise, just the jacket to simplify things
It just depends on what you want. A suit vs sportcoat can be different. $2k is a v nice budget for either tho.
Depending on where you’re located I like Hall Madden a good bit. I have two suits from them including my wedding suit. They start around $1400 and go up depending on fabric choice. I’d assume just a jacket would be cheaper
I'll read this in a bit
For sure. I flirted with the idea of a casual brown corduroy suit. Something I could split up if need be. My office is fairly casual, but having something flexible would be nice. A herringbone jacket could do a bit of the same, sans pants
I’m in NYC, so definitely a bit easier than most places in the US when it comes to access
their earlier dress pants still good on me lol. it turned sht after the made in hk was introduced for cost cutting
drop by the armoury see if anything catch your eyes 🙂
I’ll stop in one weekend!
Okay, I read this thread
I’m always ready for the gimp knowledge drop
oh man way to put me on the hot seat. I don't know anything
First, the fit. At first blush it looks okay from the front. But the side profile reveals the obvious shoulder issue.
Now, there's been a sea of ink spilled over shoulder divots. The professional, actual, very experienced tailors on styleforum insist that the issue with shoulder divots is almost always actually an armhole issue, that is, your arm is physically too large for the shape of the armhole. They describe it as, and I am paraphrasing, "imagine taking a flexible oval, then taking a hard oval on an angle that's bigger than the flexible oval, and pushing it through; the flexible oval will twist and deform to allow passage." This deformation will turn a "vertical" oval (height larger than width) into a ... less vertical oval or even a "horizontal" oval, which means that the top and bottom of the armhole pinch in towards the center, which means the material at the shoulder is being pulled in. Well, there is structuring in the shoulder that does a better job of resisting that, but then there is the part of the sleeve near the sleevehead that isn't structured and folds in easily, causing a divot.
There are, I am sure, illustrations to go with this .......
Styleforum
Divot terror
In a new thread worthy coincidence, I have just received an e-bay purchase of a nice flannel jacket right during the unfolding of that thread with the divots. The jacket is lovely, and fits well in the chest and length, but has incredible shoulder divots. I think it's from the 1980s, I am slim...
Sadly as the forum died and was then revived, some of the old threads and some of the old images are gone, including the illustration from 2009, but it sort of makes sense once you play around with jackets
The relevance here is this. A lot of times people have a shoulder divot and they declare this is because the shoulders of the suit are too big -- that the seam-to-seam measurement is too long, that the shoulder on the suit extends past the wearer's physical shoulder. This is ... sometimes right, usually wrong, sometimes wrong-ish.
I mean intuitively it makes sense that if your shoulder is too big it will divot, and this is true, but it is more or less true depending on 1) the size mismatch and 2) the structuring. Imagine if the jacket shoulder was made out of concrete: no matter how big it is, it can never really divot, right? It's far too stiff. And the cloth making up the sleeve would just hang looseley even if it's three feet away from your arm, it wouldn't pinch back in to hug your upper arm, right? And in fact, people regularly make or buy jackets with extended shoulders - on purpose - with no divot.
Obviously this is not a rule because a jacket's shoulder can in fact fold and sometimes it happens, but usually the problem is actually that the armhole is too small and/or not properly shaped or cut for the wearer, and/or that there is a significant sleeve pitch issue.
See how where the jacket divots in, the material of the sleeve then seems to hug your upper arm?
If the armhole was sized bigger, the sleeve material would drape down gracefully from the sleevehead and sort of hang a little loosely, like heavy cloth draped down from a ... roof or something stiff. Like if you took a carpet and hung it from your gutter you wouldn't expect it to fold back in and hug your house's walls, right?
So, it may seem paradoxic, but the solution is to "size up". You may think that means bigger shoulder width and more divot, but not necessarily
Though, the problem is of course that the next size up might have other issues, because it may just be too big.
Really, in this case, what you'd really want is a bigger armhole usually in the horizontal direction, and a sleeve that's cut fuller (S&M does "slim" and "slimmer.")
So it may well be that S&M's silhouette just physically does not fit you.
The other evidence that the jacket is too small is at the waist. Again at first blush it totally looks fine, then you see a little pulling. But then you look at the sides, where it makes a big ol shape, becaues it's actually being pulled much more than it looks at first. You can see more evidence of that at the back. Add to that that it's maybe a little bit short, half inch, full inch ... but not 1.5 I think
So if you ordered 40R slim, I'd try out 40R contemporary and/or 42R slim and/or 42R contemporary from S&M if I wanted a jacket from them
I hope what I wrote is accurate. And didn't meander too much. In summary, my very very inexpect diagnosis is: armhole too small / wrong shape for you, jacket too tight, points to at first it being either the wrong cut or wrong size (too small in either case), possibly both, possibly just not a fit for your body.
A real tailor would give you better guidance.
If you plan to stop in at the armoury, bring the jacket and see what they say. If they agree with me, great. If not, then they are right and I am wrong, 99.8% chance.
On the subject of, well, subjective things. I think tweed looks better full-cut than slim-cut. If there is a perfect waist measurement, I'd prefer a little bit more than that. I'd prefer full cut sleeves. Even a little bit of drape in the chest wouldn't go amiss.
One nice thing about tweed is that it is so heavy that it drapes beautifully and hides a very large amount of fullness. I just got a jacket that's like... fuckin' 4 inches too big around the waist but you can barely tell. Same with the first tweed jacket I got, my tailor took out 4 inches around the waist, in the side and back seams, but when I wore it as I got it, it was decent. Well, my wife doesn't like the professor look and said it was a little too professorly, but the fit itself, from 5 feet away, looked respectable despite so much extra cloth.
On the flip side, I ebayed a jacket in a fine worsted that ended up having 4 extra inches around the waist, and looked like a kid trying on his dad's suit. Whoops.
The other reason I like full cuts on tweed is practicality: tweed is warm. Great for fall, winter, early spring. But it may not be warm enough depending on where you live. Want to layer it? Maybe a sweater? You're gonna enjoy having an extra inch circumference and a little bit extra around the arms too.
Okay, that was a ton of words, so I apologize to anyone who had to read them
Final subject, the subject of buying
So one nice thing about tweed is that it's REALLY cheap on ebay. I mean, not every tweed jacket, but tons of them. They sell even worse than suits. Tons of quality stuff for under $50. Tons of it is quite vintage, like 50+ years old, made in Britain, US, etc, not modern off-shore stuff (not that that is necessarily worse) that you find at moderate budgets. Since it's generally forgiving... well, maybe try a used jacket? Also, vintage stuff has detailing that is almost impossible to find when not bespoke. Storm collars, (faux-)belt backs, action backs, patch+flap pockets, pleated patch + flap pockets, pleasted patch + button-down flap pockets (like on a field jacket). Sometimes weird in-betweeners, like something between a norfolk jacket, field jacket, and sport coat. Some really lovely materials. (And actually, don't sleep on tweed or tweed-looking wool field jackets, and teba jackets.)
so for older garments like that, would the cut be dated nowadays?
As far as custom-made goes, the mtm-bespoke spectrum, well, you've got everything from like $700 to like $7000 and it really just depends on what you want and what you value. The Armoury is by reputation excellent. If you go custom, I recommend generally listening to the tailor you're working with, and avoiding seeing the options list as a checklist. Don't read 15-year-old articles about "signs of a bespoke jacket, get these visible options so people know you know your tailoring and that the jacket is bespoke" ... just get the simple stuff that you'd want to wear daily
Good question. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Some are dated in a way that is bleh, some are dated in a way that is vintage and cool, and some look "modern, but classic cut."
The history of sport coats basically started with an evolution of the full/half norfolk jacket, for the rich man to wear riding (sporting was, at the time, literally just activities on horseback.) In a way, the sport coat doesn't merely trace its roots back to that, but, if you take a modern sport coat and make it out of a sturdy tough warm material (like tweed but not only tweed), you'd have something extremely recognizable as a sport coat from when they were a new garment. Except that they're no longer cut long in the back to cover your seat when you're on horseback ...
one issue with finding stuff on ebay like that for me is hard to visualize myself wearing it
while for stuff like spier, u look at it and, damn it look good, gonna look great on me
i guess it sorta how the seller present the merchandise
And in light of that, you have to ask if a 3-button storm-collar sport coat is "dated" or "functional, with the intent of the garment and cloth selection." If you find it dated and bleh, well, tons of tweed sport coats are just your standard 2-button or 3-roll-2 with a deep V, even vintage ones
and it take experience to buy older garments on ebay
Yes to all of those things
Most sellers suck at photography, most sellers don't have a buck to pose it on, and sometimes even good photography and a good buck isn't enough to visualize it well
And yes you get hit rate on ebay that ... varies with your knowledge and luck. But at <$50 the risks are much lower than if you try to buy $200-500 suits off ebay, right? So I find it easier to recommend to people to take a swing.
yea, there that. crazy how tailoring can go from thousands to under 100
Buying used takes a decent amount of experience and willingness to end up with duds esp with tailoring
Knowing your measurements and what to look for helps a ton
for sure, my tailoring tape helps save countless relisting
Yep, let's see, my tweed coats... I got on ebay
Cheo Bespoke (Bruce Boyer's personally owned jacket) - I paid ~$200, new was ~$2000
Rubinacci bespoke - I paid ~$230, new is ~$4000
Rubinacci RTW x2 - I paid $125 each, new is $1000-2000 I think (unsure)
But I sure bought some duds along the way.
Beyond furious to discover you’re Bruce Boyer’s size hahaha
Well, he has a bit more of a belly than me, hence needing to take 4 inches in at the waist (circumference, not across, obviously)
I bought the jacket listed as 24" sleeve, assuming it was easy to tailor. It is of course not easy to tailor but it measured at 22" and fits me perfectly. Talk about luck.
Cheo is not a name people know. His A&S jacket went for like $750 on ebay. Too rich for my blood... for $750 for a used jacket, I'd pay a bit more (okay, a fair bit more) and go to my tailor and have them make me one, 10/10 times. Not my idea of a good purchase. But $200? Sign me up.
Hmm maybe I should up my eBay budget for a tweed. Sounds like some good stuff can pop up in the $200-$300 range
oh yeah for sure, some great shit
and it's no competition for me because, and I declare to the world, I AM DONE BUYING TWEED.
https://old.reddit.com/r/NavyBlazer/comments/16k3o3d/weekend_free_talk_and_simple_questions/k0xfmeh/?context=3 turns out I own 7 tweed jackets, plus one thick cashmere, and one more that's getting released back into the wild. I live in san jose and do NOT need any more. Might even release two.
Reddit
gimpwiz's comment on "Weekend Free Talk and Simple Questions"
Explore this conversation and more from the NavyBlazer community
Not gonna bid on this one because the sleeves are too long and I don't wanna do another sleeve-off alteration, but this one looks really fucking nice, size ~38. https://www.ebay.com/itm/355050539969
eBay
#1 MENSWEAR $5K+ Paolo Martorano Bespoke Mocha Brown Green Maxi POW...
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for #1 MENSWEAR $5K+ Paolo Martorano Bespoke Mocha Brown Green Maxi POW Tweed Jacket at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
Hmm I’m gunning for patch pockets but that fabric is tasty
Yeah I'm confused over the flap and ticket pockets on a Sport Coat. I have a tweed jacket that's part of a suit I had assumed would scream orphaned suit coat if I wore alone but apparently tweed counters that? It's a rock paper scissors situation?
Gimp, thank you for the very in depth write up and a great education. I’ve always struggled with fit at the shoulders and never realized it may actually be caused by the armhole, and not the actual should width
I think from prior experience, a 42R from Spier in contemporary was just too big, so may need to just cross them off the list
Wow, so comprehensive. I’ll have to do some eBay sifting and see what I can find
On the topic of buying bespoke used, is that often a more difficult thing to get right? I imagine the intricacies of the body the garment was made for making it even harder to ensure fit, even if you have the standard measurements of the garment to compare to
Also, on the topic of armholes - is that something that would typically be flexible part of a MTM block?
Check out Drake’s too. Their jackets fit me pretty well and may work for you too.
Not for Spier. They raised the arm holes on the neo cut 2 so unless you can get the older neo pattern not sure it could be fixed. Also, I didn’t realize that was the slim fit - to gimps point the contemporary fit may solve your problem.
The secret to buying vintage that still looks contemporary is the quarters. You want something with open quarters like Spier does - there’s a handful of stuff from brooks brothers, polo, and southwick that can still look good today.
I’ll have to go down there, it’s been on my list to hit back up. Just got a Drakes x St. John chore coat off eBay and it fits like a charm
Got it. The tweed is actually the contemporary fit, so only solution would be trying a 42R, but as mentioned I don’t think the cut is for me so seems fruitless haha
I always associate Brooks with the sack. Didn’t realize they made some cuts with more open quarters! I’ll keep an eye out, thanks for the pointer
Yeah their older sacks (60s and 70s) have great open quarters
This is my BB jacket and I think it’s from the 70s. https://www.instagram.com/p/CwpoxLWLLIZ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Time to sift through eBay 😊
Save yourself the trouble and set up a saved search
also stalk drop93 for ringjacket if that ur thing as well. i got some great pieces there
granted if u know ringjacket size from visitng the armoury
Great suggestion, I’ve been in once or twice, but never consistently look. A visit to the armoury would definitely benefit if I go that route!
non-armoury ring jacket model tend to needed size up 1 size btw
If it's MTM, armhole size and shape should be adjustable. But remember, custom is a spectrum. Factory production is affordable but has limits. Bench-made production is much more likely to allow changes out of standard scope. But factory production tends to include in its scope a good fit for the vast majority of people. Armoury production is heavily benchmade.
Yes, someone-else's-bespoke tends to have excellent quality for the price but it's not designed to fit anyone but the original customer, really, so it's harder to nail fit. On the flip side, proper bespoke virtually always has significant fabric allowances to make changes. It's a risk, but I find it tolerable.
Tweed can pretty much always be a sport coat. I can't think of a single tweed jacket that doesn't work broken up if it's part of a suit. Flap pockets are totally fine for sport coats, even jetted pockets can work, not only patch. Ticket pockets are a bit harder but again, they're not really "formal and only for suits", they're originally designed to be functional and are often found on tweed and other british style leaning jackets.
Appreciate the insight. I have a couple jackets I might post in outfit-feedback just to get the final word
In fact, tweed is what I pull out as an example of suit-or-sport-coat almost-any-time, in the discussion of what rides the line between the two well
Great to know. Still weighing what makes most sense for me when it comes to picking somewhere to go MTM. I think perhaps worth to just try on a bunch of OTR stuff before - could try Drakes, Armoury, Press (although they may look a bit too out of date, quarters are seemingly closed). Probably a few others in NYC that might do the trick
Tweed is great in that regard. I feel similarly about corduroy too. Something about those more rustic fabrics
You might be able to wear Press’s pennant label which has a nice contemporary cut. I’d add J. Mueser to your potential MTM list and shop Juniors (but Glenn is based in Philly)
Mueser is one I’ve been thinking a ton about for the MTM route. Was also considering the Anthology too since they have a trunk show coming up
Philly isn’t a big deal luckily - have some family there I visit often. Glenn is great - I ordered some cords last season that didn’t end up working out from him
I’ll have to stop into the Press Pennant store they recently opened
@gimp @LeisurelyLoafing @RZ1989
Found a pic of the 42R contemporary from S&M for posterity’s sake
Didn’t have as many from multiple angles, but think body fit is much better, shoulders too wonky
I think it’s better than the 40 but still not a great cut for you
And one from Suit Supply which does fit marginally better everywhere (which I bought about a year ago). Although I don’t think I’m 100% happy with the shoulders still
I think that looks nice in the shoulders but you could probably have the chest/waist cleaned up a bit
I agree with loafing, the shoulders on the susu jacket look great but the chest and waist are having issues
@LeisurelyLoafing @ll.beansandrice
Appreciate the feedback. Took some updated pics today.
If I take this to the tailor, what should I go about asking for? I think the pain points I see are
1. Slightest pulling at the button
2. Hips (around seat) need to be let out to correct the bump above the vents
3. Shoulders and back look weird with some rippling, but I don’t know if that’s fixable without costing an arm and a leg
4. Sleeves could come up a hair. I think my shirt is about where I’d aim for all my shirts going forward to hit
Anything I’m missing / misrepresenting?
That’s beyond my level on knowledge, but a good tailor will get it sorted for you. Go to a proper tailor and not alterations/dry cleaner shop if you can.
Yes, the 42R from S&M isn't it either. I am sorry to say that their house cut might just not be it for you. The susu jacket does fit a lot better. What immediately jumps out to me is the shoulders not being quite right from the sides - Either a size issue or pitch issue, probably. Does the issue go away if you rotate your shoulders forward or back, or hold your arms more forward or back (I assume forward)? I think this is part of why the back looks how it does but am not sure. Then, near the bottom, it's just tight. Waist needs to be let out a bit, it looks like. Sleeve length is fine as is if you like it, but if you wanted to shorten it a quarter inch, but all means. I'd bring it to a proper tailor and ask them to diagnose.
Thanks, both! I’ll check in the morning on the shoulder rotation piece
I’ve found an alterations tailor I know who does good work on tailoring, but can try to find a tailor to have them take a look at it for a diagnosis
Played around with this as I was getting ready for work. The issue in the shoulder pretty must disappears if I roll my shoulders forward and move my arms forward. Is that a pitch issue then? And if so, how easy is that to fix / correct for in MTM if you’re familiar?
Probably a pitch issue, but it could be not just how the sleeve is attached but also how the shoulder is shaped / sewn. I'm really not a tailor ...
Anyways MTM should be able to accommodate for that without issue. Probably. Assuming your fitter knows how to measure you properly.
Thanks! Rather be informed than not. Will bring it with me to a tailor and do some research about different places to do MTM. Will also try on some more OTR in the mean time just to get a better feel for it all
Just an update here - I ended up trying on a 42 from Drakes and it was just too large in the same way.
Went to the Armoury today and actually was fitted in a 48 which I guess is the equivalent of a 38R. Surprisingly found the fit to be good, albeit slightly too close in the waist. Surprised sizing could swing this much, but I guess that’s kind of how this all works
That's a big difference for sure. Waist is generally easy to fix. 48 is in theory 48cm across is 18.90 inches, or 37.80 around, so yeah about a 38. I'm surprised about the difference. Measuring the actual thing can be quirky, but different cuts can lead to a whole size difference easily, though two is kind of rare.
So if you're supposed to be a 38 or 40 then a 42 wouldn't be the best!
Yeah perhaps it’s just the cut. A 48 in the Model 15 is a hair under 44” around, which is just 1” smaller in girth than my suitsupply 42R. I will say as a whole, the Armoury jackets fit felt closer to the body
Now stylistically, I wasn’t in love with any of the fabrics they were carrying in the Model 3 or 15. Easily fixed with MTO, but lead time is now through March 2024, so I may just continue to look, try on, learn and then pull the trigger later on
This does make me want to try drakes again at a 38 or 40 to see if that changes anything
That said, as a whole a jacket size of 38 and pant size of 35/36 reads incredibly strange to me…
Hey u asking the right place 😂
I have drakes tweed and ring jacket jp version and armoury version
Armoury model 3 i wear 38
Fit perfectly
Drakes same size but it fuller
More like a relax fit
I think i can squeeze 36 with drakes
And it gonna fit trimmer on me
Is it one of the Games jackets? Their non-Games tailoring at least reads a lot slimmer per the size charts
To have similar overall fit like the armoury
Ah no i have the non games one
But at least the shoulder on drakes gonna be a tad like half an in larger compre to armoury
Super interesting! Thank you. I’ll go try it on in person and see, at least it’s all rewarding once the fit is right
Size 48 measuring 44" around is nonsensical to me, honestly. Regardless of it being EU or US :P the sizing just doesn't line up. 42R measuring 44-45" around is more or less expected.
It’s definitely unexpected. The Anthology measures their 50 as 44” fwiw