Vectors and Points are similar, but different one is an offset (timespan), while the other is an exa

Vectors and Points are similar, but different
one is an offset (timespan), while the other is an exact location (datetime)

Kai•10/21/23, 9:59 PM

That's the thing I kind of disagree with. Ie cellular automata. I can absolutely calculate the distance to another cell even in this integer world

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 9:59 PM

You can then also expose features on Point, like Distance
in a way that works better and is more efficient for integers
namely, Distance is then the manhattan/taxi cab, rather than euclidean distance

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 9:59 PM

i.e. you don't return the hypotenuse, which can't be represented as an integer

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 9:59 PM

you return the stepping amount in the x/y direction as a pair

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:00 PM

which is to say, you return the sides required to compute the hypotenuse

Ttannergooding Vectors and Points are similar, but different one is an offset (timespan), while...

Kai•10/21/23, 10:00 PM

And while I agree that we like to think this way, just like with datetime and timespan, really datetime and points are also just kind of an offset that we pretend are absolute

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:01 PM

~~a vector is a member of a vector space over a field~~ actually fun fact length and normalization are not strictly required by the axioms for vectors and is only specifically required for normed vector spaces and/or inner product spaces of which the latter is a superclass of the former

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:01 PM

they aren't offsets and aren't intended as such
a DateTime describes a precise point in time, its not variable

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:01 PM

a point likewise describes a precise position in an infinite grid of where the center is 0, 0

Kai•10/21/23, 10:02 PM

Imo separating those is more annoying to work with in many corner cases and makes little improvement for the other cases

Kkhitiara ~~a vector is a member of a vector space over a field~~ actually fun fact length...

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:02 PM

I should have clarified

Euclidean vector

Euclidean vector

, yes

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:03 PM

im with kai here

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:03 PM

especially in gamedev contexts

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:03 PM

as much as its not rigorously correct

Perksey•10/21/23, 10:03 PM

can i throw a gigantic cat into this bag that may make you think harder

KKai Imo separating those is more annoying to work with in many corner cases and make...

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:03 PM

I hard disagree here (but of course, its ultimately not my engine)

You are basically pushing yourself into the same buggy holes that make most C/C++ engines terrible
and why most people complain about these concepts everywhere else

Ttannergooding a point likewise describes a precise position in an infinite grid of where the c...

Kai•10/21/23, 10:04 PM

And vector describes a pointer from some origin (often 0,0) to somewhere. You can also think of it as a pointer between to geometrical positions but...
And it's the same with datetime, it's "absolute" in that we all agree that it's relative to some origin, just like the 0,0 of the proposed integer point type

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:04 PM

separate the concepts and help your users achieve success

PPerksey can i throw a gigantic cat into this bag that may make you think harder

Perksey•10/21/23, 10:04 PM

what if we added colour APIs, these are typically done with """vector""" types (see unity)

Perksey•10/21/23, 10:04 PM

these are very much not a euclidean vector

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:04 PM

point and vector arent fundamentally different concepts theyre different representations of the same concept

PPerksey what if we added colour APIs, these are typically done with """vector""" types (...

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:05 PM

see reasons why the BCL designed and approved a separate type for

Color

Color

in System.Numerics

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:05 PM

which is a rank-1 dimension-N list of scalars

PPerksey what if we added colour APIs, these are typically done with """vector""" types (...

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:05 PM

as in a version replacing system.drawing.color?

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:05 PM

personally i can recommend writing your own color type as well. its what i did

Ttannergooding separate the concepts and help your users achieve success

Kai•10/21/23, 10:05 PM

I'm really trying to think where separating is more convenient for the user but I'm having a hard time.
Seems like it's just very difficult to choose which type to use (similar to datetime and timespan...)

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:05 PM

i have too

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

system.drawing.color is honestly kinda bad for graphics programming lmao, for representation reasons

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

its just bad

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

also requires bringing in all of system.drawing.common

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

it does not

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

does it not? thought it did

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

its there by default

KKai I'm really trying to think where separating is more convenient for the user but ...

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

the consideration is that Vector has some core concepts that are basically a requirement for core usage
including things like

Normalize

Normalize

, which trends towards

for integers

a Point doesn't have those issues, because it doesn't need those features, and so by providing a separate type you help users achieve success
and still don't restrict usability because they can explicitly convert where required

AAqua its there by default

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

then why could i never reference it without that dependency

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:06 PM

Color

Color

class doesn't use a packed value, it stores float R, G, B, and A values

Kkhitiara then why could i never reference it without that dependency

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:07 PM

idk, i've heard others say that you need to include common too, but i've literally never had to

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:07 PM

also

Maxine•10/21/23, 10:07 PM

well this is annoying

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:07 PM

calling both int and float versions vectors is in keeping with the industry convention established by multiple even most graphics apis which silk intends to bind to

Perksey•10/21/23, 10:08 PM

anyway i didn't mean to derail the discussion, just wanted to make sure that there are use cases being considered should we generalise to "N-length array of Ts"

Ttannergooding the consideration is that Vector has some core concepts that are basically a req...

Kai•10/21/23, 10:08 PM

hmm... Normalize really doesn't make much sense, but I think all the others do - Length makes total sense.
Of course we could make Point(2<int>, idk)Point(2<int>, idk) return a Vector on subtraction, and then that way the difference is clear (like DateTime and Timespan

).
But idk, that seems hard

Kkhitiara calling both int and float versions vectors is in keeping with the industry conv...

tannergoodingOP•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

yes, but at the same time most people writing games don't use DirectX or OGL or Vulkan
they use a higher level engine which abstracts those, and often introduces its own different concepts and such

Ttannergooding yes, but at the same time most people writing games don't use DirectX or OGL or ...

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

in which case why are they using silk

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

silk is low level bindings

Kkhitiara in which case why are they using silk

Perksey•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

this is a bad take for maths specifically

Perksey•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

maths is the only namespace we provide that is truly standalone and generally applicable
e.g. these guys use it quite extensively https://github.com/asc-community

khitiara•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

ok yeah fair hadnt considered that

Kkhitiara calling both int and float versions vectors is in keeping with the industry conv...

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:09 PM

i can see tanner's point (haha)
in math, a point represents a point in space, whereas a vector represents a distance from something else
a point does not have a magnitude, a vector does

Aqua•10/21/23, 10:10 PM

and quite often the use of an integer vector is as a point in space

Vectors and Points are similar, but different one is an offset (timespan), while the other is an exa

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