Cloudflare Developers•3y ago

👋 Put your ID in the thread for access here: https://discord.com/channels/595317990191398933/11126

Put your ID in the thread for access here: Browser Rendering API Beta Access (can also be found via pins)

CChaika 👋 Put your ID in the thread for access here: https://discord.com/channels/5953...

Andy•11/7/23, 3:20 AM

alright!

jason•11/7/23, 2:39 PM

Hello, I'm trying to understand the proposed pricing structure and how to optimize it. Based on the proposed pricing in this blog post[1], you get 500 sessions per month for free and then 10 cents per session after that. A session, as I understand it, is an active running browser. The naive approach, at any sort of scale, quickly becomes expensive. So the blog says to use a durable object to keep the browser alive and re-use the existing session instead of starting a new one. The example code uses an alarm to keep the browser alive while idle for 1 minute before shutting it down. Using this structure, If I'm understanding it right. Worst case scenario, if I had a job that triggered every 61 seconds, I'd end up starting about 1440 sessions per day. Which is $144/day or over $4k/mon. That's expensive. So, the solution would be the extend the life of the durable object to, say 2 minutes, which would reduce the $4k to $0, for the browser cost.

However, the durable objects aren't free, but I'm having a much harder time understanding how expensive they will be. For example, why do I need to shut down the browser at all? How much does it cost for the browser to sit idle in a Durable Object? Is that documented anywhere? And what if it's not idle? If my worker is handling 1 request per sec, so the browser is in active use all of the time, what sort of costs is that going to yield for the DO?

Any information would be appericiated.

[1] https://blog.cloudflare.com/running-serverless-puppeteer-workers-durable-objects/

Jjason Hello, I'm trying to understand the proposed pricing structure and how to optimi...

Mackenly•11/7/23, 4:28 PM

It costs about $4 to keep a DO alive an entrie month but I'm not sure if that's somehow against terms for browser rendering or if there's unintended consequences.
browser-rendering-api

As far as understanding the pricing I've got no clue and there hasn't been any real clarification on that. Not a single use case makes sense to pay $4000 per month for a single browser instance. You could hire a human for that.

MMackenly It costs about $4 to keep a DO alive an entrie month but I'm not sure if that's...

jason•11/7/23, 4:33 PM

Thanks for the reference to those previous messages. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is confused by all of this.

jason•11/7/23, 4:34 PM

Some people were mentioning that having one session open, means one request at a time, but that's not true. You can use newPage()newPage() to use the same browser to process request async - but there's got to be some limit to that. I can't imagine one browser would do 100s of request simulateously. But again, those limits don't seem documented either.

MMackenly It costs about $4 to keep a DO alive an entrie month but I'm not sure if that's...

Unsmart•11/7/23, 4:42 PM

Seeing as the blog post about browser rendering showed how to keep sessions alive with a durable object I would find it highly unlikely to be against TOS LUL

UUnsmart Seeing as the blog post about browser rendering showed how to keep sessions aliv...

jason•11/7/23, 4:56 PM

The question is whether keeping the browser open indefinitely is against the TOS. The blog shows how to shut it down with an alarm after a certain amout of time.

Unsmart•11/7/23, 4:57 PM

If you dont do a request to the session in 60 seconds it shuts down thats why they destroyed it after 60 seconds so you dont get billed for the DO being alive if the session isnt even active anymore

Unsmart•11/7/23, 4:58 PM

If you do a call every 60 seconds their example would live forever

UUnsmart If you dont do a request to the session in 60 seconds it shuts down thats why th...

jason•11/7/23, 5:10 PM

Where is it documented that the session shuts down automatically after 60 seconds?

Jjason Where is it documented that the session shuts down automatically after 60 second...

Unsmart•11/7/23, 5:11 PM

https://developers.cloudflare.com/browser-rendering/platform/limits/#limits

A browser instance gets killed if it does not get any command for 60 seconds, freeing one instance.

Limits · Browser Rendering docs

The Workers Browser Rendering API is currently in beta. Add yourself to the waitlist to reserve your spot, and as we expand availability, we will …

jason•11/7/23, 5:12 PM

@Unsmart | Tech debt Ah, okay. That's not good at all then.

jason•11/7/23, 5:12 PM

So if you have, in my example a service that gets a request every minute in a half, you'll have to start a new session for each request.

jason•11/7/23, 5:13 PM

Which will end up with a $4k bill each month.

jason•11/7/23, 5:13 PM

You'd want to add a heartbeat request every <60s in order to keep the browser alive to avoid starting new ones. Crazy.

Jjason You'd want to add a heartbeat request every <60s in order to keep the browser al...

Mackenly•11/7/23, 7:18 PM

Yep. The problem isn't keeping it alive for a minute but if it's okay to keep it alive for forever. And if so why is that the best practice, seems hacky.

It doesn't make sense that CF needs to charge $0.10 to spin up/spin down a browser rendering instance for 60 seconds but will let you keep it up all month for $0.10 as long as you interact with it once every 60 seconds. The economics just don't make sense.

MMackenly Yep. The problem isn't keeping it alive for a minute but if it's okay to keep it...

jason•11/7/23, 7:25 PM

Agreed. Unless it's basically free for them to have it sit idle... but if that's the case, why automatically turn them off after 1 minute?

Jjason Agreed. Unless it's basically free for them to have it sit idle... but if that's...

Mackenly•11/7/23, 7:26 PM

Yeah or just make the session pricing low enough so that it makes sense to spin up/spin down as needed rather than relying on hacks to avoid a $4k bill.

jason•11/7/23, 7:32 PM

Do CF devs monitor this channel? Or is it only community members speculating?

andrew•11/8/23, 1:56 AM

It's a very puzzling situation. I'm basically waiting until it's sorted out before I implement anything with the Browser Rendering API

hellocryptokr•11/8/23, 7:50 AM

Hey there when using the Browser Rendering API, I ran into a cloudflare challenge on a website I wanted to access lol. Is there anyway to wait/bypass that? Or is this a goner? Thanks!

DDanTheGoodman Does puppeteer stealth work? (ping plz)

hellocryptokr•11/8/23, 7:53 AM

Hey Dan did stealth work out for you?

Hhellocryptokr Hey Dan did stealth work out for you?

DanTheGoodman•11/8/23, 12:24 PM

I haven't tried it, I don't think anyone answered my question on pricing so I didn't try it

Hhellocryptokr Hey there when using the Browser Rendering API, I ran into a cloudflare challeng...

DanTheGoodman•11/8/23, 12:24 PM

I think that's the point, they don't want bots

DDanTheGoodman I haven't tried it, I don't think anyone answered my question on pricing so I di...

hellocryptokr•11/8/23, 12:25 PM

That's a bummer... will probably have to work a way around then. Thanks for answering bro!

Vikash•11/8/23, 12:59 PM

Is this supposed to work on Pages function?

Jjason Hello, I'm trying to understand the proposed pricing structure and how to optimi...

Pedro•11/8/23, 5:38 PM

Hey @jasonlfunk, currently, on the free plan, each account can initiate up to 100 browser sessions per month.
For the Paid plan (included in Workers), each account can initiate up to 500 sessions/month with the capability to run 10 concurrent sessions. Additional sessions on this plan are billed at $0.10 each, and additional concurrent sessions costs $1.00 each.
Each account can start up to two new browser sessions every minute. Note that if a browser instance remains idle, with no commands issued for 60 seconds, it will be terminated, thus making room for a new available instance.
Durable Object enables the creation of a "continuous browser session". This approach allows for the reuse of a browser instance without incurring costs for starting a new session, though charges for the Durable Object apply

PPedro Hey @jasonlfunk, currently, on the free plan, each account can initiate up to 10...

Unsmart•11/8/23, 5:41 PM

Based on this message I assume you work at CF. As an fyi you can run the /cfrole/cfrole command to get the cloudflare employee role

PPedro Hey @jasonlfunk, currently, on the free plan, each account can initiate up to 10...

jason•11/8/23, 5:48 PM

I understand. I think the outstanding questions are this:
1) Is it a problem to keep a browser session open indefinitely? (by using alarms/cron to keep it active).
2) How many pages can a single browser session reasonably have open at a time? (If my app is processing 100 requests per second, can they all be sent to a single session? Should they be split up over multiple sessions?)

Jjason I understand. I think the outstanding questions are this: 1) Is it a problem to ...

Pedro•11/8/23, 5:59 PM

We are currently in beta and things might change, but 1) As shown on the previously mentioned blog post, it's acceptable to keep the session active. 2) I'll need to verify and follow up regarding your second question, but it seems the limitations will likely be tied to memory capacity, which can vary with each use-case

PPedro We are currently in beta and things might change, but 1) As shown on the previou...

jason•11/8/23, 6:03 PM

Great, thanks for the information.

Zzegevlier You can absolutely do that: Keep in mind that the current limits for the beta on...

Vikash•11/9/23, 12:02 PM

Does this means, it cost me $3,880 per month for single URL screenshot every minute?

For example, if I have a worker capturing a website screenshot on every minute scheduled CRON.

(43,800 minutes/session * $0.10 per session) - 500 free session = $3,880

Assuming a new session will be created each time the scheduled function starts.

async scheduled(
    event: ScheduledEvent,
    env: Env,
    ctx: ExecutionContext
  ): Promise<void> {
    const urls = [
      "https://agenty.com",
    ];
    const browser = await puppeteer.launch(env.MYBROWSER);
    await screenshot(
      browser,
      urls,
      env
    );
    await browser.close();
  },

async scheduled(
    event: ScheduledEvent,
    env: Env,
    ctx: ExecutionContext
  ): Promise<void> {
    const urls = [
      "https://agenty.com",
    ];
    const browser = await puppeteer.launch(env.MYBROWSER);
    await screenshot(
      browser,
      urls,
      env
    );
    await browser.close();
  },

It's going to be super expensive

that way. What are other suggestion?

Pedro•11/9/23, 12:17 PM

Hey @Vikash [Agenty], consider using Durable Object as a way to reuse the open sessions. Please take a look at this blog post, as the example seems quite similar to your use-case: https://blog.cloudflare.com/running-serverless-puppeteer-workers-durable-objects/

The Cloudflare Blog

Running Serverless Puppeteer with Workers and Durable Objects

We’ve heard from developers that configuring and maintaining their own serverless browser automation systems can be quite painful. The Workers Browser Rendering API solves this

PPedro Hey @Vikash [Agenty], consider using Durable Object as a way to reuse the open s...

Vikash•11/9/23, 12:31 PM

If I use durable object and keep setting the alarm. Does that mean my session will never expire? Because I am using CRON so it will keep warming up every minute

VVikash If I use durable object and keep setting the alarm. Does that mean my session wi...

Vikash•11/9/23, 12:32 PM

Also, any way to track cost/sessions in beta?

VVikash If I use durable object and keep setting the alarm. Does that mean my session wi...

Pedro•11/9/23, 1:37 PM

Mostly, note that the Durable Object might be terminated in some instances, such as if it is idle for 30 seconds, if it hits memory limits or when we put out new releases

VVikash Also, any way to track cost/sessions in beta?

Pedro•11/9/23, 1:39 PM

Not something we offer at the moment, but we are exploring this possibility

DevGuy•11/10/23, 3:02 PM

Hello, I would like to request access to the browser rendering API. Thanks!

DDevGuy Hello, I would like to request access to the browser rendering API. Thanks!

zegevlier•11/10/23, 3:10 PM

Put your account ID in browser-rendering-apiBrowser Rendering API Beta Access

Zzegevlier Put your account ID in https://discord.com/channels/595317990191398933/111267505...

DevGuy•11/10/23, 3:11 PM

Thanks!

Johannes•11/10/23, 11:29 PM

Wow, I joined this Discord to learn more about the Browser Rendering API. And I'm shocked about the pricing!

For 5 USD i can execute a simple docker container, that might does not scale, but that wouldn't introduce a private bankruptcy...

usmannk•11/11/23, 12:29 AM

https://developers.cloudflare.com/browser-rendering/get-started/browser-rendering-with-do/#6-

Deploy a Browser Rendering Worker with Durable Objects · Browser Re...

By following this guide, you will create a Worker that uses the Browser Rendering API along with Durable Objects to take screenshots from web pages …

usmannk•11/11/23, 12:30 AM

is the example code above correct? The browser instance is unconditionally closed in fetch(), which makes the durable object useless for the next call

usmannk•11/11/23, 12:30 AM

@Pedro

usmannk•11/11/23, 12:39 AM

actually this example seems to have lots of mistakes

Uusmannk actually this example seems to have lots of mistakes 😅

Johannes•11/11/23, 9:16 AM

have you figured out how it should be implemented instead?

JJohannes have you figured out how it should be implemented instead?

usmannk•11/11/23, 6:30 PM

at a minimum:

remove the browser.close()browser.close() line
check that the browser is connected every fetch (this.browser.isConnected()this.browser.isConnected()), and reinstantiate it if not
do not call newPage() every fetch, instead check the browser instance and see if it has the number of pages you need already, from last time
add an await to the setAlarm call

unfortunately it seems we also have to worry about synchronization, if two worker calls grab the browser durable object simultaneously then there is no hope. i think state.blockConcurrencyWhile()state.blockConcurrencyWhile() may be the answer, but I haven't tested it yet

Pedro•11/13/23, 8:57 AM

Hey @uk, this blog post might be a better example of what you're trying to achieve: https://blog.cloudflare.com/running-serverless-puppeteer-workers-durable-objects/

The Cloudflare Blog

Running Serverless Puppeteer with Workers and Durable Objects

We’ve heard from developers that configuring and maintaining their own serverless browser automation systems can be quite painful. The Workers Browser Rendering API solves this

PPedro Hey @_uk_, this blog post might be a better example of what you're trying to ac...

usmannk•11/13/23, 3:23 PM

at first glance this is the same code as the linked doc

Johannes•11/14/23, 5:38 AM

Ok, I'm completely confused. From what I see here, and from the lack of responses from Cloudflare, the browser rendering API looks like a dangerous endeavor. It won't scale on high load due to the limitations and it's potentially super expensive

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