My startup recently got funded, and since i am cloudflare boy, i am already using majority of its se

My startup recently got funded, and since i am cloudflare boy, i am already using majority of its services now i was thinking wether i should also use D1 as my main Database or not?

-> why i was thinking of D1?
= Since i am going to use workers for API and smart placement is also available, so using D1 would bring my api and Database closer making the query load faster.

-> Does D1 has limitations for startups?
-> has anyone faced problems with it and decided to change their DB

My use case ( not exact, just a example )
-> User will have multiple relationships in the table
-> Analytics

Thats it. please guide me if you can from your experience.
Thank you

SSteffTek I've noticed that my d1 has become really slow. A simple query where i loaded c...

Max (@rozenmd)•11/21/24, 7:15 AM

what's your database id, any chance the table just has more data without an index on the queried key?

MMax (@rozenmd)what's your database id, any chance the table just has more data without an inde...

SteffTek•11/21/24, 8:13 AM

we have a database for each tenant, in my test database we only have 4* entries in the table of concern. id is: 7b0f67f7-6768-44a8-a855-08e758a65989

SSteffTek I've noticed that my d1 has become really slow. A simple query where i loaded c...

Max (@rozenmd)•11/21/24, 11:18 AM

when you say it takes almost 300, do you mean as measured from the Worker? I don't see evidence of that kind of performance regression in that DB

SSteffTek we have a database for each tenant, in my test database we only have 4* entries ...

Max (@rozenmd)•11/21/24, 11:22 AM

also, how much traffic is this DB doing? smart placement relies on steady traffic to place your Worker optimally

MMax (@rozenmd)when you say it takes almost 300, do you mean as measured from the Worker? I don...

SteffTek•11/21/24, 11:47 AM

yep, i measuered the time within the worker. it always was around 20ms before.

should i disable smart placement? database is in WEUR anyway and all our traffic (should) come from germany

SteffTek•11/21/24, 11:50 AM

dashboard doesnt show any smart placement traffic, only default placement, so maybe not enough traffic

SSteffTek dashboard doesnt show any smart placement traffic, only default placement, so ma...

Max (@rozenmd)•11/21/24, 11:55 AM

smart placement uses 1% of your traffic to compare timings (so 99 get smart placed, 1 is left default placement as a baseline), it sounds like it needs a bit more traffic yeah

SteffTek•11/21/24, 11:56 AM

im just wondering because even our tenant has this problem where traffic should exist, more than our dev deployment ever had even while testing

SteffTek•11/21/24, 11:57 AM

funny thing to say: "yeah you just need to use the app more so it becomes faster" lol

MMax (@rozenmd)smart placement uses 1% of your traffic to compare timings (so 99 get smart plac...

lambrospetrou•11/21/24, 12:26 PM

Can you check your placement status for your worker? https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers/configuration/smart-placement/#placement-status

I think you also need to do multiple roundtrips from your worker to the database, otherwise it cannot get much faster anyway if it's a single request.

nejc•11/21/24, 12:27 PM

@Max (@rozenmd) will smart placement slow down (as it's doing more requests) workers that don't have a lot of traffic?

Nnejc @Max (@rozenmd) will smart placement slow down (as it's doing more requests) wor...

Max (@rozenmd)•11/21/24, 12:29 PM

you may have misunderstood what I wrote, smart placement doesn't do more requests, it requires more requests for better data

Nnejc @Max (@rozenmd) will smart placement slow down (as it's doing more requests) wor...

lambrospetrou•11/21/24, 12:30 PM

It's not doing more requests. It just uses 1 out of a 100 of your requests with smart placement disabled, so that it can compare that with your other 99 requests that are smart placed to figure out if it's worth it doing the smart placement or if it should "smart place your worker" elsewhere.

But always check the placement status to see if you are actually smart placed.

Llambrospetrou Can you check your placement status for your worker? https://developers.cloudfla...

SteffTek•11/21/24, 12:31 PM

will do, wait a moment

SteffTek•11/21/24, 12:34 PM

INSUFFICIENT_INVOCATIONS - so yeah... how many are needed? :D

nejc•11/21/24, 3:27 PM

@Max (@rozenmd) @lambrospetrou got it. Thank you

AAbdul My startup recently got funded, and since i am cloudflare boy, i am already usin...

James•11/21/24, 4:28 PM

I personally wouldn't use D1 as a primary due to the nature of D1 being so far from potential workers depending on your user base, the latency isn't good. During my own testing the extra 100-500ms latency per worker request due to multiple round trips to D1 wasn't worth it.

It forced me to use the DO SQL engine instead and refactor my app to per-user DBs which I feel is a more scalable design.

JJames I personally wouldn't use D1 as a primary due to the nature of D1 being so far f...

elpupper•11/21/24, 5:37 PM

how/why are you doing multiple round trips to D1?

MMax (@rozenmd)Is this a free account, or do you pay for Workers btw?

deternal•11/21/24, 6:13 PM

We use workers paid account, we have about 15 D1 databases and each one is less than 5 gb, so I doubt it crossed the 250 gb account wide threshold. The "Exceeded maximum DB size" errors show up for some time and then resolve on it's own, which is what it makes harder to understand if the db size actually breached 10gb or not, the UI's d1 db size is what we are use to decide to change the db, but these errors show up even when the db size is less than 2gb in the UI. Any tips would be gratly appreciated.

Eelpupper how/why are you doing multiple round trips to D1?

James•11/21/24, 6:22 PM

web app makes all kinds of D1 requests on a worker request, get session, get user, update user etc. Each SQL stmt is a round trip.

JJames web app makes all kinds of D1 requests on a worker request, get session, get use...

elpupper•11/21/24, 6:56 PM

100 ms seams reasonable. but 500 doesnt. You should consider not splitting up your statements and write real SQL language. I'm not making fun of you FYI a lot of people including me have a issue of splitting up queries when realistically it can be one query.

Eelpupper 100 ms seams reasonable. but 500 doesnt. You should consider not splitting up yo...

James•11/21/24, 7:05 PM

Already use straight SQL, there's no getting around some big requests with lots of disparate SQL for different purposes on a modern app. The downfall of D1 is that it's not colocated with the web server like many other services. Whats close for one user is far for another. Personally a db request should have sub 10ms latency from the web worker for simple queries. Closer to 1-5ms even or less.

elpupper•11/21/24, 7:06 PM

completely agree. The latency is a network latency tho thats the issue

elpupper•11/21/24, 7:06 PM

I had the same argument last time about it in this chat

MMax (@rozenmd)no - the bookmarks time travel uses are like pointers rather than actual copies ...

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 8:36 PM

wonder if you could run a SQLite DB in WASM and then stream the client the WAL somehow: https://sqlite.org/wasm/doc/trunk/npm.md

elpupper•11/21/24, 8:36 PM

there is a sqlite client in WASM

elpupper•11/21/24, 8:36 PM

sql.js i believe

Eelpupper there is a sqlite client in WASM

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 8:37 PM

The link I sent above is one yeah

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 8:37 PM

Not really a client it's actual full SQLite

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 8:37 PM

Oh yeah sql.js is also one

elpupper•11/21/24, 8:38 PM

https://github.com/sql-js/sql.js

elpupper•11/21/24, 8:38 PM

am i missing something about wasm?

elpupper•11/21/24, 8:38 PM

why wasm in the backend?

IIsaac McFadyen Not really a client it's actual full SQLite

elpupper•11/21/24, 8:40 PM

same with the one i sent i believe

Eelpupper why wasm in the backend?

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 8:51 PM

If you are building a native application in JavaScript (using Electron for instance), or are working in node.js, you will likely prefer to use a native binding of SQLite to JavaScript.

They recommend against that actually

IIsaac McFadyen > If you are building a native application in JavaScript (using Electron for ins...

elpupper•11/21/24, 9:00 PM

Talking about cloudflare in general :NotLikeThis:

Eelpupper Talking about cloudflare in general :NotLikeThis:

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 9:02 PM

Mainly because WASM is portable and secure. If you allowed anyone to upload binaries (as does AWS Lambda/GCP Cloud Run) then to get enough security you basically need to run them in a full, dedicated VM or at least gVisor (GCP). With WASM even though it's untrusted code, running inside the V8 WASM sandbox is secure enough.

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 9:03 PM

And because it's running in V8 it's far lighter-weight than a VM/gVisor and they can afford to run thousands/tens of thousands of WASM sandboxes.

Isaac McFadyen•11/21/24, 9:05 PM

There's a good writeup here: https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers/reference/security-model/

Max (@rozenmd)•11/21/24, 9:27 PM

D1s alpha was SQLite in WASM on DOs, it was uh "fun" to operate

MMax (@rozenmd)D1s alpha was SQLite in WASM on DOs, it was uh "fun" to operate

elpupper•11/21/24, 10:42 PM

:kekw:

IIsaac McFadyen And because it's running in V8 it's far lighter-weight than a VM/gVisor and they...

elpupper•11/21/24, 10:42 PM

i will have to test this

elpupper•11/21/24, 10:43 PM

im working o nsomething similar to AWS lambda and CF workers using NixOS microvm.nix and firecracker

JJames Already use straight SQL, there's no getting around some big requests with lots ...

Burrito•11/21/24, 11:58 PM

Worker smart placement should help with this though, as it should put your worker closer to D1 rather than closer to user if it sees that you are making multiple round trips to D1. Read replica is also on the roadmap, although there doesn't seem to be any ETA for that.

Burrito•11/22/24, 12:04 AM

I'm also considering if I should build on D1 or DO + SQLite storage, but the latter having to pay extra for DO requests, as well as losing out on D1 features, are putting me off.

BBurrito I'm also considering if I should build on D1 or DO + SQLite storage, but the lat...

James•11/22/24, 12:13 AM

Had the same concern, what clinched it for me is the 10gb limit on d1. Audit trails, request logging etc eats that up quick. Only d1 feature I miss is dumping the SQLite file. Going custom on the rest isn’t hard.

Burrito•11/22/24, 12:15 AM

10 GB limit? Ah, maximum database size.

JJames Had the same concern, what clinched it for me is the 10gb limit on d1. Audit tra...

elpupper•11/22/24, 12:32 AM

make new dbs i guess

elpupper•11/22/24, 12:33 AM

but i swear cloudflare already does those for you

JJames Had the same concern, what clinched it for me is the 10gb limit on d1. Audit tra...

Burrito•11/22/24, 12:45 AM

DO SQLite currently only has 1 GB limit though, and doc seems to indicate that it will be raised to 10 GB when GA, which matches what D1 offers.

My startup recently got funded, and since i am cloudflare boy, i am already using majority of its se

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