Discord Server Changes
@uBlue Members @Bazzite Contributor @Bazzite Maintainer @Aurora Maintainer @Aurora Contributor @Bluefin Maintainer
Hey folks,
I saw some recent changes to the discord that have taken place that I am trying understand better.
I have seen Bluefin and Aurora both make the decision to move to their own separate discord servers for development. I understand that the community here has grown substantially and the noise has become untenable. This space has become both a community support space for the projects and a development space which is clear that it's not what folks who work on Bluefin or Aurora want.
I do want to express the benefits of having the combined space as I personally have learned a lot and became a contributor because of the social nature of the space in how it existed previously. Having a server completely devoted to development in my eyes would've felt intimidating if I was just starting out. Having the opportunity to get involved in the community just from a support perspective through discord was a valid pathway for me to feel comfortable getting more involved. I don't want to lose that opportunity for folks who want to get involved in any of our projects.
Furthermore, fracturing the community and having 3 discords to monitor if I want to be involved with each community is more work than just having all things in one centralized place. If this is what we want to do, that is understandable, but practically, the only development discussion being done on this server now since the changes are:
- Bazzite
- Ucore
- Cayo Server
- Universal Blue Development(?)
In an ideal world, I would like to see us have this Discord server as a place where all the projects are able to live so we can more effectively collaborate with one another. I want to understand what we could do in order for Bluefin and Aurora to feel like this is a place that makes sense for them to potentially come back to this server. If that means more effective moderation or administration of the space, I feel like that is doable given the size of the community.
If that is not possible, here are some ideas that I have to set things to a proper scope:
1. Each project should have it's own discord server for development (Cayo / Ucore and Universal Blue Development Server)
2. Continue having this server house the Bazzite project and effectively rebrand the server for Bazzite. Many of the channels are Bazzite related and there is a lot of history here that would be lost if Bazzite were to spin off from this server. I also think Bazzite benefits from having a very close proximity between it's developers and the community that we support since a lot of gamers are on discord and moving Bazzite would be a monumental shift for a lot of users.
3. Find effective ways for us to collaborate like we were doing before with a new Universal Blue development server so we all benefit from the upstream contribution model.
To be clear, I am not set on what I think should be done here, I am trying to provide ideas of how to move forward so the purpose of this discord server is more clear. I want to work more effectively together and I personally hate feeling like I'm in limbo.
A lot has changed in the past year and it is understandable that we have landed where we are. I just want to make sure we don't lose the magic of what made Universal Blue special.
I will start a thread for this discussion. Please reply in there so we don't spam this channel.
283 Replies
Here is the thread.
i personally feel this server should be a bazzite server and we move the other projects to their own things or make some other "ublue" server
Then we're splitting bazzite users out of ublue, which I explicitly never wanted to happen
their own separate discord servers for developmentbluefin dev happens on github
What is the purpose of the separate Bluefin server then?
chat
about? If it's about development it should be in github shouldn't it?
sure
but I like hanging out with people
why the separate server then? Why name it bluefin? Why not just call it Jorge's hang out spot? I'm not trying to be intentionally obtuse, but from the outside, the only bluefin related stuff on the Universal Blue server is a threaded section. Is that meant for help? Do you want no one talking about bluefin here?
why does bluefin need to be here?
you don't lose anything by it not being here
is this about the antheas convo?
remember you brought something about splitting in the previous instance
everything is working like it was before, ublue-dev exists
Community building? Showing solidarity between the projects?
why? it's a docker file
it's not dogma it's just a dockerfile
ublue is the name of the github org it's not a product
It's a community too though.
Still dont see the benefit in the split
I'm seeing lots of benefits, I have new people stepping up that didn't before
I can't speak for aurora I only moved bluefin forums + discord.
if anything now theres a lot more space to breathe of all projects
how is space an issue
like, bluefin needs a place to work without distractions
chdck the aurora server
lots of channels for lil things, working quite well
hot take: rename this server to bazzite and move other universal blue projects into one place
gamers gotta care only about bazzite
ok so
itll happen again if we do so tbh
whats the major issue with linux ecosystem?
bit of a trivia
thinking that linux distros exist and not individual operating systems
bingo
close
android is huge cuz its android
not there but close
I'm tired of "the ublue distros" and all that.
its a single word answer
fragmentation
so what do you think the problem is?
that people are going to be confused?
maybe that, 99% is that now I need to juggle more to snatch others workarounds
I do want to express the benefits of having the combined space as I personally have learned a lot and became a contributor because of the social nature of the space in how it existed previously. Having a server completely devoted to development in my eyes would've felt intimidating if I was just starting out. Having the opportunity to get involved in the community just from a support perspective through discord was a valid pathway for me to feel comfortable getting more involved. I don't want to lose that opportunity for folks who want to get involved in any of our projects.
sounds like we need to get better at working through github instead of silos
I don't expect a few hundred people in a bluefin server to have any effect on this discord
ublue-os/packages/ublue/ublue-*
instead of /usr/libexec/bazzite-*I can't speak for Aurora, but my personal opinion is I'm fine with Aurora discussion staying on ublue's server or on its own server (with a slight preference for staying on ublue's). I'm just here to write code and chill and I'm happy to do that wherever lol
yeah I don't see any problems, bluefin is moving in a different direction it doesn't make sense to have everything globbed together
it's literally FROM statements
it's like the tech is designed to be decentralized why limit it to this distro model
we're supposed to not be a distro not making three distros
What is Universal Blue?
don't ask me I'm the dinosaur guy, we wrote it down for a reason
Universal Blue is a manufacturing process that focuses on community-driven sharing of best practices via automation to make awesome desktop and server operating systems.seems to match for me
If it's just FROM statements, why have Universal Blue? Isn't the point to have a shared community of folks trying to utilize tech and share what they have learned to improve projects?
that's a good question
we don't need to have a philosophical debate/crisis though, we can just keep working on whatever
my mouse clicks on different places today than it did last week, everything else is the same
Why does it feel like it's not the same?
why does it matter? is something stopping you from working on something?
There's 6 pages of unmerged/unreviews PRs, countless bazzite threads on the forums with zero responses ... why is bluefin moving to it's own server an isssue in the grand scheme of things?
https://discord.com/channels/1072614816579063828/1397291781812523199/1397293534368763904
I'm gonna leave this there.
well I don't know what to tell you
@Noel anyway if it makes you feel better
a) I want to distance bluefin away from the ublue brand because it's becoming more like a distro
and now we're more tied into fedora than we should be
and I 100% do not want to be associated with that brand
so if you all want to go make ublue a fedora subsidiary or whatever other distro things you're supposed to do, we no longer need to fight about it
but bluefin is moving away from all of that
b) I don't want to teach my users anti-patterns, and this server has become a haven for teaching people things incorrectly.
c) I want to protect bluefin from "atomic", "immutables", or whatever dumb shit linux users make up
bluefin is a bootc project not a distribution
it's a few hundred people in a discord and ~1600 weekly devices, it's not the end of the world, nothing practically changes
im on the stance that a server split is benefical for the sake of the projects to build their own communities, without being tied to the hip to each others every decision.
I think you can choose to see the split as some community fracture and some sort of cataclysmic event. But I intent to collaborate with whoever on the server and collaborate in our upstream projects. I feel like there's less noise now and aurora and bluefin can focus on being aurora and bluefin a a those of us who care can click around to tje other servers and follow along, the rest get to just focus on what they are there for, i.e. the OS installed on their machine
I'm github centric so all that changes for me is where I paste dinosaurs
I am kinda hating Discord's gamification of the group chat. I may have to quit soon and go github only, as opening discord to watch the drama is now a strong habit
there was a debate over whether to have a combined bluefin+aurora server, but ultimately it stayed split. because it just kicks the problem down the road.
and bluefin is a gnome experience so it has to be split anyway
It helps clarify the difference between "I want to move Bluefin from the discord for practical reasons" vs "Bluefin has the intention of moving on from Universal Blue entirely sometime in the future"
that's not what I said
My two cents: Don't split servers. There's a lot of help that can be shared between aurora/bluefin and bazzite. The base is the same
you will fragment a lot of useful knowledge
I said I want to distance the brand
to me that's putting ublue where it belongs, as a base image and more invisible
I care more about selling pizzas than selling dough
why say this then?
is it really that much more practical to have your own bluefin server if you can isolate your own community* pretty well using community discord features?
like what? where?
I'm in the aurora discord it's easy for me to talk to the aurora folks.
it means bazzite can do what it wants without causing conflict
Bazzite is going to make a Ublue a subsidary of Fedora? why would we do that?
bazzite-dx will benefit from being in bluefin/aurora discords
because it has the same dx features
-dx is finished other than the docker group thing, which is supposed to be centralized in titanoboa/packages repo, discords don't matter
-dx was almost done until the implementation was derailed because you don't want to support it lol
I don't know, you keep making promises on behalf of the rest of us, so go for it. 😄
I have made no promises. I have only tried to be a bridge builder between a upstream we utilize that does a ton of work for us and trying to help them the way they have been helping us.
also, the biggest benefit of keeping one discord is user facing: it shows that bazzite is part of a bigger universal blue and if the other projects inside universal blue split their discords then what is universal blue to bazzite anymore?
I guess that depends on if you think universal blue should be user facing
but that can be fixed by rebranding the forum
it's meant to be a community of projects working together to build a better model for Desktop Linux. That's the reason I joined this project.
none of that changes
It's clear we don't see eye-to-eye on this (and several other things). I've gotten the information I needed.
I don't see what the issue is, there's almost 20k people here, scalability sucks
anyway I don't speak for the others anyway
ublue is your baby, if you dont feel the blue part anymore I guess I get it
no it's not.
literally nothing changes from a working perspective
discord split has benefits and drawbacks, benefit is everyone gets their own channels instead of being cramped, drawback is that it silos the contributors
if the only image here is bazzite, its not much ublue anymore, we will probably have to rename the discord to bazzite and throw a notification to the ublue roles to direct them to the new discords. Where will the universal blue discussion take place? Would that be here? It makes sense for now to keep it this way but some channels will have to get archived
or a 4th discord
theres always the forum and the github for discussing ublue base images.
might as well keep the "ublue-dev" discord chat on the biggest server
just tbf Tulip is working on getting wolfi-bootc working. and if that works out its a real possibility bluefin would move over to a wolfi base instead.
bluefin already uses centos stream for the LTS. Project Bluefin clearly doesnt plan to be married strictly to fedora as a base.
it's a tree, not a blob. Look at all the newish people who are talking in the new servers, it's people who didn't really talk before. It's just another place for people to grow. That's the entire point
have you looked at almalinux?
but tbh theyre busy making images themselves
I never said it had to.
Upstream to me doesn't mean just Fedora.
yeah, that's also a thing, we're not the only people making images anymore
there's going to be like thousands of these things
that means we've done our job
but also ublue is still here, but from an ecosystem building perspective, if you're giving a talk on bootc and you get to the adoption slide, what looks better:
ublue + heliumos
or
bazzite, aurora, bluefin, heliumos
like you see on reddit where the helium guys posted an update and someone is always like, why don't you work with ublue? and then some other asshole is like "vanilla is the best" when none of that shit actually matters.
like, they're going to get bothered by that every single time someone posts about them
and to us
so just say "this is all bootc"
i would say you've done your job really well
my job is ensuring bazzite doesnt die
unless everyone wants to get new hobbies
it's like less than a hundred people and 1600 active weekly devices, it's not the end of the world
I even brought metrics!
look at the unanswered questions on the forums, that is destroying more goodwill than any of this discord stuff, which isn't even a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
if you're resource starved focus on the basics
discourse does not have a mobiel app
thats problematic
if anything what we need more now, is a bootc group / community.
focussed on pushing the container based linux desktop. and getting some of these others projects in on it. theres some geninue work that needs to be done on getting bootc support working on more distro bases
not a ublue server focused soley on a handful of fedora ones only
speaking of, this wolfie stuff smells very similar to making a distro
65 package files
in an obscure dialect
perhaps using gnomeos as base would be better/
yeah
but we have lots of friends at chainguard so it's less risk imo
to get them to maintain your distro for you?
well if it works and they like it, at least theyll get paid lol
to maintain it
GitHub
gnome-shell: init package + all dependencies by tulilirockz · Pull...
This should be everything necessary to get gnome-shell working.
you mean like this? 😈
yes
yea wolfi is a distro
says so on the github
semantics aside, this is the lightest/closest we can get to no distro, and it's entirely built from the ground up to be automated
"distros are hard to maintain" because old distros don't invest in new tech
We can build every single package ourselves, easily. If the Wolfi project dies tomorrow, we would only need pick up on the automation. But compared to Fedora's legacy infrastructure, it's so much simpler to maintain
but i dont want to build every package :dispair:
thats why i use fedora
Contingency
remember how I said that software like gnome-software doesn't belong in the new world? sometimes you just have to start from scratch.
but easy to just use wolfi to get it up and running and having a soveirgn solution on a switch doesn't hurt.
you have fedora, and LTS has centos.
that sounds like additional robustness in an ecosystem to me
hey they sponsored your intern so youre doing god's work
but im fine with fedora and almalinux for the forseeable future
not cool
yea bazzite is stuck you're cool
you got an internship, you work on something cool, all of that is great
and hopefully it works well
its... an actual full contract
anyways like this stuff is why we cant simply jsut have everything here
even better
honestly is anyone surprised? I literally have been saying that I'm here to destroy the desktop and distros.
for like, 4+ years lol
hey tulip if your contract is long term congrats on that
its a big deal
thank you
i got ptsd from looking at flatpaks
and syntax is too similar to that
so ill pass on wolfi for the forseeable future
wow
i was under the impression it was an internship
anyways like i feel like the split is a good idea
more space, more channels, more people actually getting involved with bluefin and aurora
im a bit concerned longterm, youll get a bump now. But thats a problem for later
ublue doesnt need to exist, i personally feel like its purpose has been fulfilled by bootc upstream at this point
it can exist, it should just be like "General Motors"
bazzite was a good gateway drug to aurora and bluefin
the image is the brand, not "ublue"
having an image family and a community umbrella was good too
it's still there
it's just more loosely coupled
helm started off in k8s and then split off, both grew
aurora split from bluefin, look what happened, all new people showed up
aurora is doing really well
even got made in EU damn
kyle you have to remember youre italian, we cant be US made
Another reason why I dont like the split, now getting acks take longer https://discord.com/channels/1072614816579063828/1072617059265032342/1397322170560020681
Having too many servers simply adds more cognitive workload for stuff like this
Not sure if my understanding is in the right direction but Universalblue got branded for me as infrastructure and tooling project around how to adopt a image based approach to making Linux systems. Since all downstream like bazzite or bluefin want to adopt the same approach they focus on that, avoiding have to reinvent the wheel all the time, did this change? Is bluefin doing things completely different from bazzite or cayo that everyone is reinventing the wheel?
no
i think its a good idea to look at what people from bazzite contribute back to the ublue base image. From seeing the commit log, that is mostly its separate entity and almost all of it seems automated now
brainstorm all scenarios and ideas, list its benefits and downsides, and then come to a decision together
Just do all of it in a member meeting, get on zoom, list all possible scenarios: discord split or not, bazzite split or not, ublue split or not. you have to clear this all up together so that there's no more discussions like this needed in the future. I see the bazzite split idea float around many times now. Gotta come to a clear consensus of what you all want as a whole
Too many differing stances on these things is not gonna lead ublue, bazzite, aurora, bluefin anywhere
from what ive personally seen on the bluefin/aurora side is that virtually everyone is in agreement that a discord split from bazzite is needed.
the only disagreements ive seen is on whether bluefin and aurora should share a server or not.
My point was more in general: There should be more meetings to discuss stuff like this rather than a @Noel needing to suddenly make a long statement regarding a change after its already been done. This type of friction can easily be solved by planning things in advance, informing your members and allowing your members to discuss a change. It makes these type of changes feel far less sour for those opposed to it.
That's just my two cents though. I'm not a member, and thus it is merely a suggestion 😛
That's why we're doing a governance pro09sal
right, and that's all bazzite-specific stuff, has nothing to do with me
Yeah this is better in #🎮bazzite-dev
Man a little off topic here but bazzite is growing so much its hard to keep up with all the forum stuff, github stuff, discord stuff. You are away for a few days and there's 50 unanswered discord help threads and github issues.
yeah scaling sucks
this isn't a bad thing we're just growing.
Reminds me since my dad used to work at GM and people don't really know what General Motors is so I would just say "My dad work in Chevrolet" since that's more user-facing
Eitherway I think it makes sense, even if Chevrolet sometimes share stuff with other brands in General Motors, I think calling it as seperate gives a more complete view idk
I've had to jump into 3 different discords today just to see what changes people are testing and why
If this becomes a bazzite discord, I see no reason to keep uBlue dev on it, it's not even being utilized
Everything is fractured and broken now
Not only that but I don't have another server to remove to add the Aurora server so I'm literally just never going to join it
It's not worth paying for Discord for one server
I'm very concerned that the milk has been spilled and there is no getting it back in the carton. Fixing this means giving a few thousand people whiplash.
I will not be participating in this. I cannot stand the RPM nightmare land
It makes every change that much more annoying to actually accomplish
And we aren't even using it to share things like important pins or just scripts, it literally just slows down Bluefin and makes me not want to contribute. You can check my commit history. I've never added so much as a single character to a bluefin config RPM.
Not only that but bluefin wants to switch to something not even based on rpms, so what happens to these? Wasted effort? New package none of us can share anyway? Why spend even a second on them now?
I don't understand why it changed from something more native to a containerfile at all
at best the only compromise for the discord stuff. could be combining the aurora and bluefin servers back into one
And that's what I mean, that gives 3,000 people whiplash and makes us look like we have no idea what we're doing
And I have no rebuttals to that, none of this was discussed and literally just happened
The milk is not going back in the carton
This is my main issue with this change. None of this was discussed with those that would be affected by this change which in my mind is the entirety of the Universal Blue Contributors. (And by extension the downstream images)
A historical example of a change where splitting this community was beneficial was the Blue Build split from Universal Blue. This change was a proposal that I helped write to discuss how this could take place, but there was a lot of discussion that took place even before that proposal came to a vote. Here is the example of the change and how we voted on it: https://github.com/ublue-os/main/issues/476
I actually just spotted this proposal while trying to find my example: https://github.com/ublue-os/main/issues/689
This literally could've just been brought back up for discussion.
communication probably could have been better. but its also obvious that theres been an inherent difference in understanding from both sides to how important the discord is/was.
all the top ublue people should schedule proper sit down meeting on call at this point, about the future of universal blue. the discord. the forums. etc
I'm not sure any of it has a future at this point, this damage can't be undone
Not without causing even more damage
i will say from my pov the discord split has been immediately benefical for aurora and bluefin tho. theres been a big uptick in new people who never even spoke here before stepping up.
I mean isn't this all because Jorge got mad about something and just did it?
That could just be because you have more channels now (which was doable here), but new people is not worth ruining the ability to share in realtime
We already had user facing channels separated by the distro selection upon join
And no, GitHub is not a replacement for that either
There are hundreds of repositories in uBlue, nobody on any single project is watching them all
And no development has ever been done on the forum
(this is a genuine question because im obviously not in the weeds of the actual maintaining stuff, just art shite.)
correct me if im wrong, but if bluefin goes forward with actually changing to a wolfi base, isnt the amount of stuff thats shareable between projects going to decrease by a lot?
To zero
Unless bluefin undoes all the work tulip did to add 9000 RPMs to it and doesn't choose to package them in some other format
Then maybe it can share some configs, idk
well if bluefin goes that direction.
i think universal blue if its gonna still exist in any form needs to open its scope to being a greater bootc linux community, than one focused on entirely on fedora based images (especially when one of its founding members have nothing to even do with it anymore)
I was always open to that, and I don't think anything about how it's built now prevents that
Nor do I think blowing everything up into separate disparate communities improves that
What it does do is lead to people pinning packages to avoid crashes and making that apparent in their compartment
So I have to go find it myself to apply it while our users suffer
Which means I'm monitoring 3 more discords that didn't need to exist
So why have a community at all? Just separate them
We aren't benefitting from each other anymore, we aren't even communicating before we launch the nukes
Obviously that's not what I want, I want uBlue kept together and I've been very consistent about that
And I'm not the only one completely blindsided by this
Did you know Bluefin is testing a new screenshot tool and emoji picker?
I didn't because none of it was talked about in the uBlue server
I had to go find it
Actually great point Kyle -- why am I enabling this?
i know there wasnt some huge offical write up proposal, but this has been something I know for a fact has been thrown around as an idea for awhile.
if I recall the original idea was to have an invite only maintainer discord server for ublue, and then a public community one
That original idea is even worse because that would create a Ublue cabal.
There, I have left all but the Bazaar discord because that makes sense -- it's not a ublue project
If our users suffer because I didn't see an important change, that just means this experiment is the failure I know it to be
You're welcome back here anytime. I will not participate in this bullshit
for the record i did say i agree that the fine details should have been worked out more before firing the missles.
And yet here we are -- separate communities without discussion and our users are left in the middle while we discuss how the pieces fit back together
There's no good outcome here
Even if I got exactly what I wanted you're pissing off 3k people and making us all look dumb
Not you specifically, but the action of rejoining
havent really seen any backlash so far on the aurora bluefin user end. but tbf only about 200 people have even noticed the aurora/blufin discord invites. so i guess well wait and see.
i know dw
You need to touch grass more
true
but also -- do I remove the pokemon romhack discord I joined 8 years ago to join a discord that shouldnt' exist?
No, no I do not.
Genuine question, really?
ngl this is a bit of a bummer, I felt neutral about the server change thing but I just generally dislike drama
The problem is that I've seen it float around for a while and nobody actually discussed it. Once nothing is being talked about, someone will just cut the rope and make a decision themselves.
I said this before, y'all need regular meetups as an org to discuss stuff like this in a more formal manner
Universal Blue is not really an org if the project leaders below it just do what they want anyway
Actually that's a great point. So much gitvote this gitvote that and went fuck all and started the split singlehandedly
We have consistency issues
For me, I want bazzite to reach a point where we can contribute meaningfully upstream, have a stable operating system people can rely on, a stable donation stream we can use for feature development, and a release schedule that makes sense and allows us to take time off and focus on feature development
Where upstream is: fedora, kernel, kde, and gnome
I would be happy to extend those benefits to universal blue, but we are stuck on this consensus pit where we cannot push formalizing org stuff forward because Jorge wants it to freefloat and then we are pushing random linux political initiatives without concern on their effects to users
oxidize should have never been a PR. There are 0 user facing benefits and we are a downstream user-facing image
bazaar stopped receiving updates the moment we shipped it and it did not have meaningful benefits for KDE users
we are losing donations left and right because we have this crappy donation page that confuses people
im not going to comment on bluefin stuff because it is out of scope
personally i always felt there needs to be a more prominent "donation/support" section in the header bar of all the ublue sites.
i understand not wanting to actually making a formal org/non profit with all the hassle involved.
sure we have the "contributor" section but its not even clear to the user those have donation links attached
the page could have basically a banner for each person with a brief description of what they do, with a donation button. it could honestly be arranged like an org chart.
thats how it is now and its not good\
if bazzite wants to become a full blown org, to take direct donations into one big pot and argue how the money is divided and spent be my guest 💀
its even worse because its a random list of contributors with 0 indictators of people accepting sponsorships
I think some don't even know they're on the list
like Royal from secureblue is on there
I wonder how like hierarchies would work within org chart tho
but I think it makes sense, at least more than the current "here's a list of people"
probably just head maintainers, contributors, artists, in that order.
So, what should we do, cry over the spilled milk, or merge the servers back?
And no I'm not going to push rpm packages
ill tell you straight away thats not gonna happen.
at best this whole fiasco might get j0rge and nik to reconsider merging the aurora and bluefin servers together
That's stupid, only reason I need them is to avoid selinux leftovers, and all that works is completely nullified if you move to use Wolfie as base
I feel like there are some dramas that I don't know is going on and I have no idea what to think anymore
I hope at the very least that wolfi would be using SELinux (tho I heard not all SELinux formats are compatible)
Even then
Is a completely different distribution
What do I do with an APK package on fedora
Fair
Lock this thread, get on a zoom call/discord call, and just talk with all org members is my idea.
so everyone can put their stances on things and what should be done with the org as a whole
Also to get up to date, Kyle replaces discover with bazaar (which let's be honest, still unstable), Antheas blames Jorge for it somewhat (I assume because he is very vocal with changes and anth ended up associating him as the source of these decisions)
you can clearly see from this thread that nobody is on the same page
This was not the first instance
Rather the drop that broke the camel's back, I assume
If it doesn the happen this is what is going to happen:
1. Miscommunication will grow, we will be out of touch with workarounds, issues and so because let's be honest, as much you claim "we use GitHub", no we dont other than to do pull requests and file some issues and for votations @j0rge
2. Sharing knowledge won't be as straightforward. Stuff like misc tooling, discovering ways we can play with containers, anything will be lost in the void of multiple servers.
3. Eventually we will be so out of touch with each other, to the point ppl will become uninterested and will become more likely to walk away
I said it already, fragmentation is the core issue we have in this ecosystem, you are just feeding the beast
I'm not going to crawl across 3 different servers to toy around workarounds and tooling, personally, fuck that
N1 is also very annoying. I find an issue, I post about it on discord and then it gets ignored unless I file it on GitHub. I get kpis but this is not productive
N1?
Number one from zeglius
Not everyone can look at Discord all the time. It's about documenting issues where it won't get buried which, in most cases, is GitHub.
then atp Ublue needs to breakup. if the simple thought of aurora/bluefin people wanting to have their own discord server is going to be such a huge fuss.
i agreed that this should have been communicated more prior to save the pr fiasco, but aurora and bluefin should be able to choose how it wants to run its communties
Should have worded it different tbh. Rather than issues, the workarounds
Is not only community, development talks as well
When fixing the issue is less work than writing it that's a problem
Issues are fine if they’re posted to discord, but they get buried so easily if you don’t follow all channels all the time
I can't make 50 issues
This is the issue when developers/contributors are also part of the community
So they’re x3 worse if they’re scattered across 3 discord servers, discord is not ideal but getting worse is against the idea
Fixing problems is impossible if you never see the reports.
Another problem. Let's say we have an issue, that is common across all our images
Or rather something is off in our systems
Now I need to crawl across 3~4 servers to see if there is a commonality
Actually ignore this, I'm parroting the same point than above
easy solution. have a group chat with just the head maintainers as basically a fire alarm channel
Which is what we had
Ublue dev
Literally #💾ublue-dev
We still have that
unless yall choose to delete it
Until someone goes and makes a server specifically for that and we make it worse
And will happen because all ya saw bluefin did it and now we have bazaar and aurora as separate servers
okay bazaar should have been its own server ages ago.
One pulls the trigger and the rest follow with semiautomatic rifles
Tbf yes, but also, who else uses it other than universal blue projects
not tucked away in a thread of a ublue chat
is that the final goal though?
Needs to be more publicly displayed
Have a discord link baked into the app or something
But also we need to keep in sync so we can rebuild the packages and push image updates as soon as possible
ooooorrrr we just all agree where the "meeting" spot is for important things
Rather than "where", is more of a yes or no thing
I just wanna say that even tho secureblue is not part of universal blue but they are still able to share many things in #💾ublue-dev
and they still have their own server
so idk, I feel like this is doable
It’s not a question of doable or not, everything is doable but is it really convenient
I suppose it depends
i feel like at this point if bluefin and aurora had made a combined dev server, we would have been accused of trying to cut bazzite out ublue
but I think for jorge he would want his own space without weird Linux users which is fair
Well yeah, but the lack of communication in between gave a bad time in a sense
That's fair I guess
I had someone rebasing from a secure blue image
Tbf a bluefin-dev, Aurora-dev and bazzite-dev, ublue-dv should existe and be closed to regulars or contributors that would heavily diminish the needs of other discord servers
Did you know they set the immutable flag in the bashrc
Neither did I, and luckily nailed it just by gut feeling, otherwise I would have spent hours trying to troubleshoot it
I filed those in github
Well, I mean pinging them still works
I guess, didn't think of that tbh
file an issue in main
bluefin needs to have it's users seperated from the others
I know everyone is arguing in this channel now but since we've switch all the arguing everywhere else has stopped
this is true. also the benefits has been immediate for community engagement from people who havent spoken a word in the current ublue server
But is this worth to lose regular contributors for this ? I get the engagement for this but if you loose the pillards of your orgs then it’s worthless
From a personal POV, I find the community to be a bit less annoying in Bluefin's server
Too early to tell the server is too young
fair
bluefin is a working server, it's not trying to do what this server is doing
all I want is a place to do bluefin work without the noise.
all the bazzite/bazaar drama has spilled over into bluefin and it's made working here for the past month miserable
Wouldn’t this possible if they were specific bluefin-dev roles that are added manually (mods) instead of opt in for all users?
Cuz without safeguards it’ll probably happen again it’s just a question of time
and since no one is doing anything about it I made a place where I can work on what I want to work on without distractions for things that aren't important to us and are made important because bazzite wants to have a product-grade SLA and I'm not here to build a distro
all of the features/discussions I am talking about I am filing in github.
that doesn't enforce separation for the users that have the role (meaning unrelated discussions may spill), but it does create an artificial barrier between bluefin developers and non- bluefin developers, an inner circle where one needs to be invited
A free discord invites doesn’t provide separation either to be fair, but at least they will be less clashing between dev and not devs
it provides separation in that people expect different discord "servers" to have different topics and communities and likely wont continue unrelated conversation from another server
Well the ublue communities is why everyone is here
Why have the ublue community scattered across 3 différents servers
i'm not sure on where i stand on that, i just wanted to point out that your proposed alternative does not achieve the same benefits, and has some negatives aswell
your stuck voting process has nothing to do with me
this is because you bullied the author over the past month and he's tired of it.
Well that is kind of because bazaar was pushed so hard in a still not complete state. I have multiple issues with it and a lot of others have multiple issues with it. It was a mistake to include it so early and he is the only one who actively tried to stop it from replacing discover for now
I hate to say it... But that's a Bazzite / Aurora thing. Not a Bluefin/Jorge/uBlue thing.
We pushed it to Bluefin because it's better. The changes in the other two images weren't up to us.
We haven't even pushed it yet to Aurora, its just in beta for now
Ah, apologies. I didn't realise
And even then there will be a phase where both coexist and users can choose and at some point we'll remove discover
np, you cant keep up with everything 😅
It is, but it also flows back into ublue as a whole, because it shows friction and lack of organization. "It doesn't affect me" is exactly the type of stuff you want to avoid. Different projects great, but if a jorge is having issues with this discord due to bazzite's presence, then that's something to talk about, rather than "i'm out of here, this shouldn't affect anyone as i do my own thing"
I feel like people forget that kyle was also pushing for Bazaar
it wasn't a jorge/Bluefin thing
i mean if bluefin votes to leave its kinda an is what it is situation
I didn't push this, I've mentioned a million times that I do not have any rights to push any decisions into bazzite
antheas doesn't like bazaar and turned the discord into a bazaar dogpile. And the arguments spilled all over into the forums, which by the way you still haven't responded to anything on there.
you haven't addressed any of the fires on discord or the forums, and you refuse to use github
This has been going on for over a month
I guess FOMO and not having a really solid decision structure caused this problems, like you see bluefin testing a new cool thing exploring the space of possibilities and you want to follow this so you added the thing, this allowed great development speed every week there was something new and made the project grow fast. But not every new thing was successful and not every project handles the new thing the same, different audience and all that. I fear the split will tamper the velocity of the project but maybe is a good thing, does it make sense?
if anything its bluefin and aurora that has more to "lose" than bazzite from a split since bazzite is 10x larger
I don't think you can expect bazzite users to go for bluefin and aurora.
they dont. not it high quantites
which is logical since bazzite or custom is the only way to get steam native
The problem became every time bluefin tried something new, it was followed by "when it will come to bazzite" even if not necessarily makes sense.
IMHO
then more reason for different communities
It’s not a different community it’s ublue family, idk if ublue makes sense if they’re different communities
The point was to group different Linux philosophies but close with batteries included and foolproof if each one is a different community then bluefin to bazzite becomes cachy os to endeavour os
its also a base/toolkit
not just an org
I agree with this. Let's set up a call of some sort.
@antheas @bketelsen @bsherman @j0rge @EyeCantCU @Gerblesh @HikariKnight @inffy @Kyle Gospo @M2 @Robert @tulip @Zeglius Sorry for the ping, but for all Universal Blue members who want to discuss this change, please fill out your availability. This is an optional sync for those interested. https://app.rallly.co/poll/KX7iZ8YUOR6g
It's not good hours for eu
There's some good ones for morning
I can add more options. Let me know what hours would be better.
i put my availability
@Noel
not sure I see the point in communicating after the fuck up from not communicating already happened
I'll think about it
This is where I am at too. The only way I attend this is if we have a majority of the contributors willing to show up and participate in the discussion. If any key members are missing, the discussion is meaningless.
The point of this thread was to provide an asynchronous way to discuss the change so all members could participate and provide feedback.
I am going to make the decision to lock this thread now. The call to action is having a virtual voice call.
I do not have reliable network before evening of august 7th
then we have a cabal nobody from the community can join
that's actively worse than not talking to each other at all
@ledif Let's move the potential call 2 weeks out to provide an opportunity for folks to cool down and also to adjust their schedule if they would like to attend.
I would like this to be resolved more quickly, but we also need to understand folks have lives and I want to make sure anyone who is interested in coming has the choice to do so.
But I will say my sentiment is that I would liked to avoid the split.
But I can see the need of each project having their own dedicated servers.
I'm already stretched thin on the amount of servers I can be in on discord, had to make space for the new ones.
imo, sooner the better
Ok.
if we're going to undo this that's 2 more weeks of whiplash to recover from
I don't need to be there, I voiced my view and share a similar one to what Kyle has said
Perfect.
So don't wait just for me
Disregard. Leave the schedule as it is.
We'll reassess depending on who is planning to show up.
https://app.rallly.co/poll/KX7iZ8YUOR6g
Oxidize is mine and mine alone, consider it a point toward your contributing upstream goal
In the same way we were able to pop into fedora discussions and say "zstd initramfs is great, shipping it to 20k people for 2 years", we can contribute directional improvements too
I'm just now seeing this, if that's really not on the table then I think there's no reason to have any discussion whatsoever
That's a clear declaration that elements of this community will just do whatever they want without discussion or consideration for others. The whole point of a conversation is to resolve this situation and that statement means it's unresolvable.
I'm out.
Sorry it’s probably my last message in this thread, but to be fair is the voice of Chandeleer the stance of the whole aurora/bluefin team ? Cause it’s the one who participated the most in this thread (I’ve read all messages) and no offense but it’s only the « art director » there’s no technical contribution on the working aspect of ublue and working technical hurdle / complicity between those projects and yet he knows everything on how the discord works
Maybe I’m just mistaken and aurora/bluefin team thinks the same. It’s just that he carries very strong opinions that even discourage Kyle from going to the talking meeting and in a community it’s always a question of hearing point of views and finding solutions
discord as a platform also seems to incentivize splitting communities after a while without providing new means to manage communities
I think was something that Chandeleer misunderstood. There is currently no consideration to not merge servers or to merge servers. I haven't taken part too much in this thread since Aurora is "the smallest" image here and we kind of have a neutral stance on all of this. I would like to discuss in the call we have made and find a solution that works for all of us. I think by now I understand that Jorge wants his own space that is seperate from this server for his Bluefin Development which is what I respect. I think if we can get to some consensus to refactor and restructure this server and make it a better place for both bazzite users and aurora users, carry over some channels and rethink about the whole structure I think we can achieve a merger of at least Aurora and Bazzite. It would not be good to loose trust, help and knowledge between all of us in this drama that is currently playing out.
With that said, I think my decision to create an Aurora Server might have been shortsighted and the communication was straight up a no go on my part and not in any way I should have done this in the first place at all. I would like to apologize in any form I can and would like to take part in the call that takes us back on track. The damage has been done and there is definitely no way backwards, we can only continue forwards and try to improve the situation by working together.
I definitely don't want to spur any kind of hatred in either direction, torwards Bluefin, Aurora and Bazzite and I would like to strongly advocate that we solve this situation and get back to a situation where everyone can focus on their part in Universal Blue or Aurora, Bluefin or Bazzite. We are one organization or blueprint trying to create a better desktop experience for people who want to have a better computing experience and we should achieve that and let ourselves not divide over something like this.
Aurora has benefitted a lot from "drive-by" contributions that happenend because every image and user was part of this server, checked out other channels and other images and found something they could improve. We should definitely continue fostering this and I would wish we could continue this. Aurora got its maintainers mainly thanks to this.
If this text is irritating or sounds off, please excuse, not a native english speaker. This is basically written out of my mind as i type this. And sorry for the wall of text.
ive been simply giving my perspective and input. also what i said about bluefin unlikely to rejoin the discord is still most likely true. at most i jumped the gun by including nik in that sentence also. ive also literally spoken personally with kyle jorge and nik about this situation at various points through out all of this.
no it was not my intention to speak on behalf of all of aurora staff.
lets refer to those contributions as one-off, because drive-by is a different thing, as in "drive-by shooting"
which are fine
I would also prefer to keep aurora in this discord if possible
Semantics aside, I agree with the message.
All of us from the core-Aurora team are open to this (sorry been away on holidays and haven't had chance to reply anything) but Niks Post pretty much sums it very well
Speaking as someone who doesn't contribute much to Universal Blue anymore, but just as an user.
I think that unified Ublue server is better for the reasons well outlined in above responses.
I personally mute & hide the channels I don't need & visit them in less frequency & just keep the most important ones visible.
That works for me, I think that should work well for others too with the same problem.
@Kyle Gospo Based on this update from the Aurora team, would you be willing to meet with them to discuss the future of this server moving forward?
https://app.rallly.co/poll/KX7iZ8YUOR6g
Looks like the best time for most people is Saturday July 26 at 3pm UTC (5pm CEST / 11am Eastern / 10am Central / 8am Pacific). We will use the Maintainer Chat room in this Discord.
tomorrow?
should work
I committed to take my kids to an event... if I can make it tomorrow, will be for 30 minutes max.
I personally would like to time box it for 1 hour maximum. I do think it is important that we talk about this, but I want to make sure that we utilize the time effectively.
Glad you guys decided to go through with a meeting.
Is it now?
It's 5 cest
3pm UTC is in an hour
So 5pm CET not CEST
I don't know timezones, but Google says CET when asking about CEST
35m right?
yeah 30ish minutes
CEST is daylight savings of CET
We're doing tty
personally i am pretty evenly split between keeping the discord together and not. I think both have benefits and downsides for both aurora and bazzite. So, let's discuss over the next few days
@Noel why don't we close this thread and start a new one for other people to give feedback.
fresh