I'm not making any decisions until I've had a session in the simulator and flown a real MK IX though
I'm not making any decisions until I've had a session in the simulator and flown a real MK IX though, which will be this month
MSounds awesome, will really give you something to base that elusive feel from, nothing like first hand comparison.
BIt's going to be eye wateringly expensive but it will be a real experience. To be honest it's the availability of a flight in the real plane that's driving my decision to build the Spitfire cockpit. I love the Spitfire, because what Englishman doesn't ? but I'd like an EE Lightning a little better. But there's no prospect of high fidelity simulator software for that and no way to fly a real one. I knew about Thunder Road, but they shut down years ago and I don't know if they allowed any stick time on the aircraft anyway.
CThanks for the server invite! If I were interested, what's the cost of the Rhino kit? Are they available in any form?
WHey, welcome! Yes kits are available. You can check the pinned posts in #
showcase for photos. The regular motors (57blf) kit starts at 299€ and the bigger motors (86blf) start at 399€. The kits are plug and play and the working is demonstrated on my YouTube VPforce DIY video 
showcase for photos. The regular motors (57blf) kit starts at 299€ and the bigger motors (86blf) start at 399€. The kits are plug and play and the working is demonstrated on my YouTube VPforce DIY video WThe kit consists of two motors, control board and hookup wires
WYou would need a power supply and the mechanical part.
CSo the case/enclosure/gimbal mount is all separate? Is that what you are calling the "Rhino" - any separate kit for that?
WThe Rhino is the actual base, I currently offer that as a complete assembled product.
WThe motor kits are for diy'ers :)
CMakes sense. What's the cost on the full Rhino base then?
W800€
COkay, good to know! Thanks for explaining.
WYou're welcome!
CI love the FFB experience, glad to see you are doing some cool stuff with it
WYeah, wholly different experience!
VDoes the rhino come with the larger or smaller motors. And down the line do you think you'll make rhinos with even more powerful motors, 20nm<
Fthe question is, what for? why so much power? the rhino base with it's form and grip length is already really powerful. it needs to fixed really tight when it starts to unleash max forces, if not you are starting to move the base instead of the grip.
W1Nm = ~.7 ft·lb.
1 Foot = ~ 300mm. This is similar to the distance to the pivot in most real aircraft.
(F-18 has around ~ 1.5ft pitch, ~1ft roll, if the sources I've seen are accurate)
(the center of the palm may rest as much as 75mm above the base of the grip)
A pull force of ~20lbf for full deflection seems fairly typical of fighter aircraft.
(Looking for data on the f-18 I found a figure stating a force gradient of 3.5lbf/g. 3.5lbf * (7.5g-1g) ~= 23lbf = 31Nm at full aft stick.)
>20Nm seems fairly reasonable if you want to build a realistic stick for a modern jet.
manuvering aircraft without fbw (for instance the p-51) at high speed could easily become a two handed job.(>70lbf) But replicating that isn't really very viable for a ffb setup
1 Foot = ~ 300mm. This is similar to the distance to the pivot in most real aircraft.
(F-18 has around ~ 1.5ft pitch, ~1ft roll, if the sources I've seen are accurate)
(the center of the palm may rest as much as 75mm above the base of the grip)
A pull force of ~20lbf for full deflection seems fairly typical of fighter aircraft.
(Looking for data on the f-18 I found a figure stating a force gradient of 3.5lbf/g. 3.5lbf * (7.5g-1g) ~= 23lbf = 31Nm at full aft stick.)
>20Nm seems fairly reasonable if you want to build a realistic stick for a modern jet.
manuvering aircraft without fbw (for instance the p-51) at high speed could easily become a two handed job.(>70lbf) But replicating that isn't really very viable for a ffb setup
V20NM wouldnt be a terrible place to be, it would net you about half the stick force of a relatively light stick like the Mirage 2000 using the thrustmaster hornet grip and rhino base format.
VThe hornet springs give 35-40lbs at full pitch deflection, the excess after the regular lbs/g ratio is used for the AoA feedback.
WIf I ever finish my diy ffb stick project it would be fairly powerful as to replicate modern aircraft I decided on a design figure of 30Nm.
WDidn't realise that, neat.
VAlthough having used a 10KG force joystick I've become a huge fan of not having realistic forces haha, 4-5KG peak is my sweet spot
WOf course directly connecting the motors to the gimbal would be a little overkill. About a 10:1 reduction seems like the most you're going to easily fit in a single stage on a reasonably sized gimbal.
WThis is a good point, the demands of a simulator pilot are somewhat different to those of a real pilot.
VI also ran into some ergonomic issues with the wrist, because it was a short stick the angular deflection was much higher than something in a real aircraft. If it was a full size stick I suspect it would be a lot more manageable
WAh
WSorry, brain not 100% on, I meant 'how large was the pivot radius?'.
VBase is going to be mounted into directly into the chair, so shouldn't be moving with those forces
VWW libra base so very roughly 20 degrees
WI see
VHad to go measure it, about 20cm radius from the base to the stick reference point, middle finger under the trigger. It turned it into more of a wrist action to pull rather than arm.
WAh, that does sound uncomfortable with a large force.
VFor reference this is the real hornet stick
WYea, I was looking at this drawing earlier for my first comment.
VLots of fun stuff in ADA324124 and for the hornet specifically AD-A256 522 if you haven't seen it
Fi hope you guys are aware that a ffb stick is more a piece of machinery compared against a stick in a real aircraft. it can be dangerous.
VAbsolutely, I've had the opportunity to use some high power FFB wheels and they're quite something
Fyeah, those are wrist breakers and ffb sticks can turn into melee weapons ;)
Fdcs player knocked out by joystick... 
WI saw a forum post by someone who mentioned they booted up msfs with the 'push stick back on spawn' option on spawn checked, ouch...
WGonna try not to repeat that one.
Vyikes
VMight be a good idea to position the stick in such a way that you're never in danger of that, regardless for base power
WYea, definitely want some beefy physical endstops to prevent unwanted attacks.
Fstill remember my first hours with the G940, had it simply standing on the desk, testing ffb effects... it is very light, compared against the rhino, much weaker power but still wanted to hop from the desk
WYea. I've got a sidewinder I'm using as a ghetto shifter and I'ts heavy enough to keep itself down but it has a fair bit of impulse.
WInteresting discussion here I'll chime in. So yeah there are couple of design decisions and compromises for the Rhino. I wanted to make a more accessible base and to keep the weight down while having decent forces. If it beats a Brunner offering then it's a win for me. And the shipping costs worldwide go exponentially with weight 
So material selection was based on that idea also. So I consider the Rhino as the 'advanced' entry level FFB device and once this project grows, I'll have more resources to start offering more PRO solutions.
I'll chime in. So yeah there are couple of design decisions and compromises for the Rhino. I wanted to make a more accessible base and to keep the weight down while having decent forces. If it beats a Brunner offering then it's a win for me. And the shipping costs worldwide go exponentially with weight So material selection was based on that idea also. So I consider the Rhino as the 'advanced' entry level FFB device and once this project grows, I'll have more resources to start offering more PRO solutions.W86BLF04 motors with 10:1 reduction should generate up to 40-50Nm
WI had this reduction scheme on my first prototype base, 1:25 iirc Even the 57BLF did provide 5-6kg at the stick (=20-30Nm)
Even the 57BLF did provide 5-6kg at the stick (=20-30Nm)