Walmis, your policy on not taking payment until you gave all parts in stock is great. I wonder thoug

Walmis, your policy on not taking payment until you gave all parts in stock is great. I wonder though, would it help you scale up production if you asked for payment earlier, even if just for a partial amount as a deposit? I for one would be willing to pay all or part of the cost of my order much earlier, if it would help you to build up your business and increase production rate. I know this might not be possible or practical for every customer, but I would bet many of us would support this model given your proven ability to deliver on your commitments.

JJamie D.Walmis, your policy on not taking payment until you gave all parts in stock is g...

skyPickle•2/3/23, 5:22 PM

I think thats the path to stress and anxiety for walmis. Even if he hires more people they are not as likely to be effective ( he has to train them) and he makes less money (he has to pay them)

Jon (Bounty_V)•2/3/23, 6:17 PM

As I understand it adding on more people will take time and would not result in an immediate increase in production. He has mentioned previously he does have plans for increasing production over time, so perhaps we'll see some of that come into place later this year.

SskyPickle I think thats the path to stress and anxiety for walmis. Even if he hires more p...

Jamie D.OP•2/3/23, 6:20 PM

Indeed, you may be right, and my comment was intended more as an offer than as a suggestion, as I'm sure Walmis knows best how he wants to run his business.

Original message was deleted

mechsicko•2/5/23, 5:45 AM

Yes, and for that you can jumpstart the project by modding an MSFFII, which already has the architecture. Changing current sensing circuit and adding caps/diodes/mosfets you can get it up to respectable torque ranges.

Brushed motors are definitely inferior to brushless though, and unless you have a cheap source of skewed armature motors you aren't really going to save much money. Brushless motors are anti-cogged with software, brushed motors need to natively have minimal cogging hence helical armatures.

You can save a lot of time and hassle to make something much superior with one of walmis's kits.. besides being BLDC there are tons of quality of life features and the components reduced to amazing simplicity

Original message was deleted

mechsicko•2/5/23, 7:47 PM

I don't' think talking about the same motors here lol. With brushed DC for force feedback you need exotic skewed armature types to minimize magnetic cogging vs brushless which can be compensated digitally.

This puts them into a whole different category than generic cheapos on Amazon. Pittman Lo-Cog, Glentec servos are a few I know of offhand. Apparently electric power steering units use some kind as well, though hard to find specs on and specs are needed before you can tailor drives for them. Acquiring suitable motors is the only easy part of a project like this.

Here's what my Pittman motors look like inside. New they are over $200 apiece, smaller ones aren't much cheaper and it's just as much work to make a weak stick as a strong one, cause and the hardware only half the story. I was lucky to find used ones south of $50 ea which are in the voltage/amperage range to use to hotrod MSFFII following Roland van Roy's mod, a project I've abandoned because in the end is a ton of work for comparitively mediocre results. Here's a link to his page if you're really serious about this. Even the best MSFFII hack or full diy roll your own will be a cumbersome dinosaur compared to what you can much more easily make with current brushless options

Full diy: http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_force_feedback_interfacing.htm

msffii hack http://www.simprojects.nl/ms_siderwinder_ff2_hack.htm

..here's a functional digital/analog circuit I came up with for force feedback effects based on telemetry, Roland tested it and I think used it to replace all his LED/LDR circuits that performed a similar function

mechsicko•2/5/23, 8:01 PM

Others have already spent thousands of dollars and hours solving a lot of problems over the years that anyone coming fresh to this has yet to even discover are a problem yet. That's more what I meant by you aren't gonna save money this route, even if your time is worth nothing to you. If it were as easy as just buying a couple motors on amazon there would have been lots of great diy additions over the years but success in this space is limited to a select few that really knew their stuff and stayed on target.

mechsicko•2/5/23, 8:03 PM

...a good starting place to try to get up to speed is the 'Honey' thread Propeller started https://forum.dcs.world/topic/246873-honey-i-developed-ffb-joystick-diy/#comments

ED Forums

Honey, I developed FFB joystick (DIY)

Finally, it is time to introduce my FFB joystick prototype! I spent a lot of time and learned a lot of new stuff when work on it. So here what is already implemented: - Works as standard USB FFB device, understands standard FFB protocol. No drivers. No plugins. - Supports spring, constant, ramp a...

mechsicko•2/5/23, 8:12 PM

Also, no one is using steppers. walmis's kit uses Nema23 or Nema34 brushless servos. Steppers are unsuitable for FF

Jon (Bounty_V)•2/6/23, 4:10 AM

https://youtu.be/Tgka4Ho7-NY

YouTubeI Build Stuff

I Built a Working LEGO Flight Joystick

In this video I made a working Lego flight stick using a mechanism that moves my mouse.

The flight stick was designed to look like the F-18 stick, just like in Top Gun Maverick. I ended up using the flight stick to play War Thunder, and it worked flawlessly.

Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:24 Designing the Mechanism
3:41 Adding the Trigger
4:54 Epic ...

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 4:40 PM

For those that have the stick, how much play/backlash do you find around center?

DDrQuinn For those that have the stick, how much play/backlash do you find around center?

Stal2k•2/6/23, 4:49 PM

It depends on the module you're flying or how you have it setup in the app. It's not like a regular spring stick where it can be sloppy, if it's sloppy its because the game is telling it to be sloppy (like a slow flying warbird). I think that is what you're asking?

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 4:52 PM

No, there is going to be some play around center due to backlash, curious how much there is.

Stal2k•2/6/23, 4:55 PM

Sorry then maybe someone else can jump in, I'm not really familiar with backlash. There isn't really any 'play' though, again unless the module wants there to be.

DDrQuinn No, there is going to be some play around center due to backlash, curious how mu...

walmis•2/6/23, 5:10 PM

You won't feel any mechanical play.

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:13 PM

you mean backlash due to the, well backlash in the toothed belt? As in the difference between the sizes of the tooth in the belt and the gear?

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:16 PM

Interesting question. I'm not an owner yet, so I'll take whatever answers provided

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:18 PM

FYI, I developed some play in the fore aft direction. Turns out the 4 bolts around the Y motor were slightly loose and the belt tension was lost. Walmis explained this to me, I tightened the belt and now the stick is as tight as it was when it was virgin.

SskyPickle FYI, I developed some play in the fore aft direction. Turns out the 4 bolts arou...

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:20 PM

How much play do you have when it's tight?

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:20 PM

1 mm

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:21 PM

look at the belt as you gently wobble the styick. If the belt is tight it will not lose/gain curvature of the straight line between the pulleys

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:22 PM

now the question is - 1mm where?

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:22 PM

who cares, thats just an estimate. look at the belt and its deflection

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:23 PM

the top of the stick maybe has 2-3 mm

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:23 PM

That seems like a lot.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:24 PM

its a lot less than beforew

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:24 PM

Using an extension?

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:24 PM

before

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:24 PM

you think real sticks have no play?

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:26 PM

I mean, that seems like a lot compared to my TM Warthog with a 20mm extension where any minute movement is read, even at the middle position. I'm aware that stuff in general has some play to it.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:28 PM

It's play in the FORCE FEEDBACK mech, not play in the hall efect sensor.

SskyPickle you think real sticks have no play?

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:28 PM

No, it's all compensated for in the trimmers and AFCS.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:28 PM

Play in the sensor appears as a deadzone, which this stick does not have

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:30 PM

so I don't know if we're talking about the same thing then. Yes, I do not have any deadzone in the Warthog. But mechanical play in FFB joystick would also surely manifest itself as effectively a deadzone, just not around the middle position but any current resting position?

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:31 PM

I would assume the question is about mechanical play not any simulated play. The latter is quite fine to be there.

DDrQuinn No, it's all compensated for in the trimmers and AFCS.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:31 PM

Which sticks are you talking about? the multi thousand dollar ones with magnetic clutches? I think this device is good for what it's made of.. Dead zone means the stick moves but the game does not register it. Sloppiness in the FFB means the stick wiggles a pinch before you feel the tight motor

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:33 PM

It seems neither of you have hands on with this device. Are you using a brunner?

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:34 PM

I'm talking about real aircraft, helicopters specifically. I'm really curious how well it's going to hold it's position when resetting the trim to a new position. Which would be the FFBs job.

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:34 PM

I'm using a Brunner right now.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:35 PM

I'm sure I could make it even tighter if I spent the time but the enemy of good is perfect.

SskyPickle It seems neither of you have hands on with this device. Are you using a brunner?

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:35 PM

I don't have the Brunner. I was thinking about it, but decided to wait for walmis. Still, he himself just said mechanical play shouldn't be felt, hence my remark (plus comparison to what I have experience with)

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:36 PM

that's fair. Don't want to "overgood" it.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 5:38 PM

The trim reset is very good.. When I hold the trim button, the stick is loose and upon release, it immediately engages. As you know trimming a heli is different to a plane-you are not really trimming at the control surfaces - rather the trim is just an invisible appendage holding the stick. As such, you are constantly trimming. At least I am when maneuvering to and from a hover. Only in cruise do I set trim and forget it.

Polack-1•2/6/23, 5:42 PM

That's good to hear. Maybe I'd actually start using force trim in helis. Because atm I just prefer not to, unless in transit. Definitely not when going into hover or doing any kind of combat flying.

SskyPickle The trim reset is very good.. When I hold the trim button, the stick is loose an...

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:42 PM

You are re-trimming the control surfaces in a helicopter, repositioning the cyclic that is held by the trim motors. In this case just releasing the FFB to reposition.

DrQuinn•2/6/23, 5:45 PM

Good to hear that the centering is good enough to hold position in forward flight, the Brunner is lacking in that. Can be compensated for in software but still not perfect.

skyPickle•2/6/23, 6:03 PM

trim in an aircraft was often achieved by moving small secondary surfaces. Modern fly by wire jets have trim the same way that helis do-by adjusting the primary control surfaces' 'neutral position'. My choice of this device was based on its simplicity-works out of the box without software-something that turned me off to winwing as well. Also I have a strong belief in supporting individuals. Most inventions as well as advances in science are made by the individual mind, not corporations or committees.

CLU•2/6/23, 6:08 PM

!stats

CCLU !stats

VPforceBot•2/6/23, 6:08 PM

Hey @clu2606,
So the last Shipped RHINO is #0044 on 2023-02-01
Average waiting time from preorder to shipped is 117 days, median is 116 days, max is 196 days
41 Rhinos are shipped in total

CLU•2/6/23, 6:09 PM

hey all, new owner here. got the package this morning. very surprised at the quality. wont be able to try it out until this weekend but cant wait to get started

CCLU hey all, new owner here. got the package this morning. very surprised at the qua...

Boggy•2/6/23, 6:43 PM

Surprised in a good way or bad?

Walmis, your policy on not taking payment until you gave all parts in stock is great. I wonder thoug

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