(Online) MTM/MTO tips/advice?
Does anyone have experience with/ advice about online made to order/custom suits? I'm thinking about trying it (currently looking at spier & mackay) but I have some reservations.
I'm a 5'6" masculine-presenting afab woman and pretty close to a 34/36S, but probably not close enough that I could order a 36S and get it altered - I have narrow, square shoulders & 34s are usually a little too small though the chest/waist/hips.
How likely is it that I'll get something decent if I tweak the measurements to account for fit issues I normally have with OTR men's sizes? I have some sewing experience so I understand my measurements & concepts like ease slightly better than a total layperson but online mto/mtm is definitely still a big leap and I don't wanna just throw away ~600usd.
I've been in person to j press, sid mashburn, and the armoury (I'm in nyc) and the 34 at the armoury/ 36S at j press were both very close (and lovely) but even the ring jacket 34 was too wide in the shoulder - and that's an expensive alteration that to my understanding is a bit of a crapshoot. I'm wondering if I'd be better off going cheaper since I'll probably always need alterations anyway and besides, I'm pretty new to tailoring, still figuring out what I like etc.
33 Replies
If you have a suitsupply close by, it may be worth trying in person as well. At least online, they go all the way down to a 32, and are cut pretty slim overall.
would you say spier and suitsupply are similar in terms of fit? I get the impression that spier has a higher rise & is less slim fitting overall but that might just be my memory of suitsupply's ads in the 2010s.
It sounds like if you order a normal MTM suit, you are going to need to find a good tailor to alter it. Have you considered looking on eBay? The alteration cost might be just the same, but the purchase cost would be much less.
There's a number of questions there.
First, I'd love to see photos of the suits that were close but no cigar. Specifically, what does it mean that the shoulders were too wide? Were they too wide in a way that the upper sleeve collaprsed or that significant wrinkling was caused, or were they too wide in terms of not being your preferred look, or were they too wide in terms of just being wider than your actual shoulders by a significant margin?
The first is a serious technical issue and effectively unfixable even if you're a good tailor, the second is a matter of taste and of course you should get what you like, but the third isn't actually a problem - extended shoulders are a (purposeful) choice that can work well.
Segue: have you considered shopping in the boys' section? You may find a jacket with slimmer shoulders that fits. You're borderline between the two so it may be hard. Someone suggested Beam's boys section recently, which is a solid idea - Asian tailoring tends to have narrower shoulders than British, with Italian and American being somewhat in between (Generally, this is not a hard rule)
Now, about custom. So, as I am sure you're thinking, custom is always a risk, so you're asking how likely it is for you to get what you want
I would suggest that, until / unless you're quite experienced, you always need to try stuff on / do stuff in person. So for example, you can go to suitsupply, find the best fitting suit, then go to their MTM people and say, "X Y Z issue is not fixable on this suit but it's a solid start. Can we make a custom suit starting with this one, then adjusting X Y Z?" They should be able to accommodate that.
The alternative is, you send in measurements to an online MTM place and you pay to have a trial garment made. What they will do is send you a muslin shell, you will do some combination of video consultation, mark what's wrong, and have a tailor pin it, and send it back to them. They will use that to change the pattern then make you a suit.
I would NOT suggest doing an online MTM suit straight-to-finish where you submit measurements and then they send you a completed garment. Risky.
I would expect a budget anywhere in the $600-1000 range. This may or may not include tailoring the finished suit to be better. This gets you something decidedly entry-level, but not bad by any means, as long as you don't stray to some overpriced brands, or bad brands like indochino.
In general I find that suitsupply and spier have a fairly similar body fit. Both of them basically do "slim" and "slimmer." Aesthetically, spier specializes in the relaxed italian cut. Look to them for a suit that's got softer shoulders (and a lot of spalla camica shoulders), and big notch lapels, with a fairly "medium height / classic height" lapel gorge, not too high or too low. Suitsupply has a half dozen or so models, which range from roped shoulder, to natural shoulder (most of what they sell I suspect), but their havana line also has a more italian style with a more relaxed shoulder. I find spier to be slightly more striking, and most of what suitsupply sells to be slightly more subtle. But they are all about slimmer bodies.
I hope this helps
I do not have photos of the jacket I tried on at the armoury, which was my favourite. It was a model 3 - I like the extended shoulder but the 34 was so wide that it was collapsing quite a bit - since my shoulders are so square they really push up into the shoulder, if that makes sense. other than that it just needed everything shortened a little and the waist let out. The assistant pinched the collar to approximate a couple of alterations that could help and they did make enough of a difference that I'm wondering about buying a sport coat there (alterations are free with mto. but wow still $$$$$$$$)
Took a quick photo in my best-fitting ebay try (recent, I'm gonna take it to get the sleeves shortened etc soon) which is a boglioli 36R. I think it's pretty close? The trousers I'm wearing I don't really like - yeah I can put them on and they're not uncomfortably tight but imo they're too slim. Photos were taken at a bit of a low angle but hopefully they're not too distorted that you can't see what I mean.
I've considered beams before but it's hard to find out where I can try them on. Typically asian brands are too slim for me though. The ring jacket stuff at the armoury was great because the draped/full chest... drapes around my chest haha. And I already know my hips could be a problem with boys stuff but I'll consider it. I'm definitely not the type of gal who's a 5 foot and change waif though and those are the people I associate with having luck w boy's stuff. Worth a try though I guess?
Nice photos. Yeah, Armoury is $$$$. Big moneys. The ebay jacket is pretty decent. The shoulders are not the best (and I'd like to see your back as well) but not terrible. Seems almost more of an issue of sleeve pitch than width but this gets technical and I am not a tailor.
Boglioli does make some extra-slim stuff for sure, often with shoulders that are quite narrow.
Yeah, hips and bust make boys a much more difficult thing to make work. And yeah, drape cut helps for a roomier bust.
(I wish I saw photos of the armoury jacket you liked the most)
I will say that based on these photos, I think you should be able to get something done MTM without huge issue. Your proportions are obviously not classic-average-man but given how decently the boglioli fits, I'm confident you can make it work.
But definitely would highly suggest away from purely online.
Not only is it a crapshoot in most cases, but you've got some requirements that are unusual enough to make it very risky.
Oh, speaking of potential things to try on that should be easy to find. J Crew's Ludlow cut. Find the smallest they got, throw it on, take a photo. I bought one online I didn't much like the fit, and a friend when she heard I was getting rid of it asked for it, and says it fits her quite well.
So, some background - there's a lot of debate over what MTM actually means. Here's my 2c on it. MTM is done in one of two ways: factory or handwork. Factories may have many options or few options, but they are optimized for two things: price and consistency. What they are not optimized for is being able to color outside the lines, which you may need. I'd want to see you in photos of standard stuff like j crew and suitsupply to make a guess but it would only be an educated guess, I am no tailor. If you need outside the lines, you basically need small-production stuff where they can do pretty much whatever. That does cost more. Most MTM offerings don't just use factories, but many of them actually use the same ones, like Atalier Munro is the maker for probably a thousand small tailors that "do MTM" and several larger companies outsource to them as well. What that means is that if one company can't do something, you gotta ask who makes their stuff, and if it's a big factory that means anyone who uses them will probably also say it cannot be done (or they'll mistakenly say it can...)
Haha I used to work at a jcrew mens shop back in 2018 or so. the ludlow 34S's were very slim on me - didn't stop me from wearing a jacket to work of course but I sold it a little while ago because it really felt too small - and even then the shoulders collapsed a little. I'm also not a huge fan of the little lapels and the super suppressed waist (on me anyway) that kept the vents from laying nicely. It was flattering if I stood exactly right and adjusted it all the time but I cbf with that anymore, I'd rather have something look a little slouchy. I have this old pic of me in it but I don't think it's great for assessing fit. I'll go try on some suitsupply suits soon though.
I'm convinced that I shouldn't go full online MTM though, thank you for all the info. I'll start posting fit checks once I try more stuff on and remember to take pictures.
Yeah, the ludlow lapels are a bit sad.
Let us know how it goes. And any new photos will help
I see you’re in NYC. I think Hall Madden has a location there. You could go through their in-person program to get measured first. They have fabrics starting around $1200 or $1400 iirc. Which isn’t no money but I think a great value for what you get
Ended up going to both suitsupply and the armoury since it was nearby. The terrible lighting is a suitsupply havana 36s and the outdoors are the armoury model 3 34s. The armoury guys are the nicest guys on the planet so they offered to take the pictures - I'm sure the suitsupply photos aren't great bc of that. The saleswoman at suitsupply was lovely and seemed to understand what I wanted to go for so I'm leaning towards trying suitsupply mtm and being super prepared going in with plenty of reference and a plan.
I loved the armoury ring jacket tho and I'd love to save up for a future trunk show and do mtm with them 😔 seriously nice stuff in there and wonderful people helping you out
Hello, I'm a trans man with proportions that are closer to a cis man's but still carry lower weight/have narrow shoulders. I have not had success with MTM. If you're in NYC I'd check out bindle and keep. They're MTM BUT their house cut is not my taste but many masculine AFAB people have liked them.
The big thing with bindle and keep is the button stance. It's slightly higher than what I've seen in other brands.
Thanks for the photos. The first issues that pop out at me are the flaring at the hips and I suspect that is also causing the back issued (not sure as to cause but definitely the back can be a lot cleaner, especially on one of those.)
The shoulders are surprisingly decent. I see what you mean about wanting narrower shoulders, but notice how from the front they look pretty good and it's hard to notice your actual shoulder ends early? From the sides you can sort of see the top of the sleeve collapsing but it's not at all atrocious, just noticeable. The back proportions don't look quite right around the shoulders.
Yeah their house cut is not to my taste either. I don't see any suits in their gallery that I like 😔 at least w suitsupply I've seen examples of people getting something moderate/relaxed made rather than really skinny.
I will throw out an idea. Nothing definite but worth asking about if you go MTM: extended shoulders. Basically you structure and shape the shoulders to be quite a bit wider than the standard cut, but on purpose, you don't get the top of the sleeve collapsing. It may be the case that this is easier for them to cut than significantly narrower shoulders. I bet they'll do narrower shoulders just fine but it may be worth asking about. Again, I'm not any sort of expert.
In any event, I think there's hope. Just don't bet the house on it, custom is always risky.
I do hear amazing things about the armoury. Just 3x as expensive as an entry level MTM from suitsupply.
Search for them on Instagram. Although I do agree that they tend to trend slim, it is MTM. There's a few in the gallery (not many) that I would consider medium to relaxed fit. However, you are comparing to suit supply which I would consider slim fit.
Yeah I think extended shoulders may be the way to go too. I would rather gamble with sub 1k than sub 3k so yeah even though I think the armoury would do a great job I still feel like as someone pretty new to wearing tailoring I should be conservative haha.
Very reasonable.
Make sure you're getting measured by someone who knows what they're doing. If you get a clueless sales guy, politely figure out how to get someone who knows. If you're in NYC people probably have names, like, "ask for soandso at suitsupply, he works tuesdays"
There's also my suit in midtown I think.
I only know 2 people who went and had a good experience
I can't find it in this thread but you are in NYC right?
There's a huuuuuge thread on styleforum called suitsupply nyc. Granted, it's mostly about suitsupply everywhere. But worth asking who knows their shit there
Yeah the guy at the armoury recommended someone at suitsupply... And it turned out she was the saleswoman who helped me. She was in a pretty relaxed suit herself too. So I think if I do my research and bring in good reference I may have luck.
Perfecto.
Oh I'll google them!
I've been reading thru it! Definitely interesting and it seems like people get nice results when they know what to ask for.
When you say you haven't had luck with mtm, what's usually gone wrong for you?
Things just always look off. It's usually a proportions/balance thing. Like I'll have a bunch of room in the chest but the back will be tight. Or the length is weird where because of my body shape the back will drape to an appropriate length but the front will ride up an inch or two. I've also asked for a moderate or relaxed fit but because they're not used to a body shaped like mine they don't make the right adjustments.
Generally, men's bodies are indeed simpler to cut for.
I had a shirt that had a very high arm hole, cuffs that were too tight for my liking but the rest of the arm was fine. I was told they couldn't adjust the arm hole.
There's a saville row lady specializing on women's tailoring. She does trunk shows and visits nyc. Bespoke. Her prices started at $2k for a jacket but may have gone up.
That's not too bad but not something for me.
Yeah the main issue that I think I sorta share with TMNY is that I'm not looking for someone who's gonna come up with a "feminine/womenswear" solution for the issues I have but instead treat me like... a hip-y guy with gynecomastia. I don't have grand delusions about a suit that makes my hips disappear but I'd love something that fits cleanly enough that the average person thinks I look nice.
TMNY idk what style you're after but if you ever have a chance to go to j press the sack cut blazers I've tried on solved a bunch of problems simply by skipping waist suppression entirely. haha. I kinda want to commission something from them someday if I really get more into ivy.
I was gonna suggest sack cut as well, but you're ahead of me.
Not as necessarily the solution, but a possible one.
I might caution that sack cut plus extended shoulders isn't something I suspect will work.
Bedfords by engineered garments have been a good fit for me. I don't really have a reason to own a blazer or suit and my weight fluctuates too much.
I am really loving this thread. @gimp , you are awesome.