hey y'all - wanted to ask if anyone had opinions regarding Neon w/ Neon's connection pooling vs Neon

C

ColinOP•10/11/23, 10:53 PM

It seems like the main Hyperdrive-specific features are query caching + analytics (not yet but soon)

C

ColinOP•10/11/23, 10:54 PM

does anyone have experience with it / have any thoughts i might be missing?

CColin hey y'all - wanted to ask if anyone had opinions regarding Neon w/ Neon's connec...

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/11/23, 10:55 PM

Hyperdrive will be more efficient. The reason for that is:

Hyperdrive:
Worker --(very low latency)--> Hyperdrive --(persistent connection)--> Neon, so connection establishment from Worker to Hyperdrive is fast
Neon:
Worker --(higher latency)--> Neon Pooler, so while Neon might handle connection pooling the connections will still take a longer amount of time to start

Workers are rapidly spun up/down based on requests, so initial connection time is very important.

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/11/23, 10:56 PM

However, your Neon DB might not sleep very well with inactivity on Hyperdrive. See the conversation above.

IIsaac McFadyen Hyperdrive will be more efficient. The reason for that is: **Hyperdrive:** Work...

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ColinOP•10/11/23, 10:58 PM

I definitely understand this for the

pg

pg

driver, but if we're using

@neondatabase/serverless

@neondatabase/serverless

@neondatabase/serverless

@neondatabase/serverless or similar I'd expect their optimizations to reduce round trips would make it closer at least

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ColinOP•10/11/23, 10:59 PM

i'm not sure how close that'd be to hyperdrive, if it's comparable at all

CColin I definitely understand this for the `pg` driver, but if we're using `@neondatab...

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/11/23, 10:59 PM

Ah - missed that you were using the Serverless driver. That should be fast to start since it's Websockets to the closest Neon node which then uses a long-lived TCP connection.

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/11/23, 11:01 PM

Check out https://neon.tech/demos/ping-thing if you want some preliminary numbers.

Ping Thing

A @neondatabase/serverless demo

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/11/23, 11:01 PM

In particular you want the Seconds field.

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ColinOP•10/11/23, 11:03 PM

yep I totally forgot to mention the serverless driver, my bad. so probably a better way to phrase what I was asking about is "how should we expect hyperdrive w/ standard SQL drivers to perform in comparison to neon w/ serverless drivers"

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ColinOP•10/11/23, 11:04 PM

it still seems like Hyperdrive might be faster as it's much closer to the worker despite having more round trips when establishing a connection(?)

C

ColinOP•10/11/23, 11:05 PM

but it seems like there's a lot of Neon fans in here who might've tried this instead of just me theorizing

CColin it still seems like Hyperdrive might be faster as it's much closer to the worker...

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Matt Silverlock•10/12/23, 10:39 AM

The Neon Serverless driver still needs to make 3-4 round trips for almost every Workers invocation.

CColin but it seems like there's a lot of Neon fans in here who might've tried this ins...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/12/23, 10:40 AM

CColin but it seems like there's a lot of Neon fans in here who might've tried this ins...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/12/23, 10:41 AM

This isn’t Neon’s fault: their driver is great in lieu of other options in many serverless environments, but Hyperdrive exists because that’s still not good enough to get latency down.

MMatt Silverlock The Neon Serverless driver still needs to make 3-4 round trips for almost every ...

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/12/23, 8:40 PM

Question: how is this the case with Websockets? Is there still a handshake procedure that requires extra round-trips?

IIsaac McFadyen Question: how is this the case with Websockets? Is there still a handshake proce...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/12/23, 8:42 PM

TLS, then WebSocket. Every time.

MMatt Silverlock TLS, then WebSocket. Every time.

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/12/23, 8:42 PM

Do they not have edge nodes handling TLS closer to the Worker?

IIsaac McFadyen Do they not have edge nodes handling TLS closer to the Worker?

M

Matt Silverlock•10/12/23, 8:42 PM

No.

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/12/23, 8:42 PM

I know Prisma has many edge nodes despite having the DB be central.

I

Isaac McFadyen•10/12/23, 8:43 PM

Oh, interesting. OK then.

IIsaac McFadyen I know Prisma has many edge nodes despite having the DB be central.

H

Hello, I’m Allie!•10/13/23, 5:13 AM

Isn’t Prisma Edge CF already?

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ColinOP•10/15/23, 11:23 PM

Hi! I'm getting a

Connection terminated unexpectedly

Connection terminated unexpectedly

Connection terminated unexpectedly

Connection terminated unexpectedly error thrown while trying to query my Postgres DB w/ Hyperdrive. Using almost exactly the example code here:

const client = new Client({
  connectionString: context.env.DB_HYPERDRIVE.connectionString,
});

// Connect to our database
console.log("START CONNECT");
await client.connect();
console.log("END CONNECT");

// Test query
console.log("START QUERY");
const result = await client.query({
    text: "SELECT * FROM pg_tables",
});
console.log("END QUERY");

// Returns result rows as JSON
return context.json({ result: result });

const client = new Client({
  connectionString: context.env.DB_HYPERDRIVE.connectionString,
});

// Connect to our database
console.log("START CONNECT");
await client.connect();
console.log("END CONNECT");

// Test query
console.log("START QUERY");
const result = await client.query({
    text: "SELECT * FROM pg_tables",
});
console.log("END QUERY");

// Returns result rows as JSON
return context.json({ result: result });

const client = new Client({
  connectionString: context.env.DB_HYPERDRIVE.connectionString,
});

// Connect to our database
console.log("START CONNECT");
await client.connect();
console.log("END CONNECT");

// Test query
console.log("START QUERY");
const result = await client.query({
    text: "SELECT * FROM pg_tables",
});
console.log("END QUERY");

// Returns result rows as JSON
return context.json({ result: result });

const client = new Client({
  connectionString: context.env.DB_HYPERDRIVE.connectionString,
});

// Connect to our database
console.log("START CONNECT");
await client.connect();
console.log("END CONNECT");

// Test query
console.log("START QUERY");
const result = await client.query({
    text: "SELECT * FROM pg_tables",
});
console.log("END QUERY");

// Returns result rows as JSON
return context.json({ result: result });

client.connect()

client.connect()

client.connect()

client.connect() is finishing fine, but

client.query()

client.query()

client.query()

client.query() is throwing

Connection terminated unexpectedly

Connection terminated unexpectedly

Connection terminated unexpectedly

Connection terminated unexpectedly . I'm setting

node_compat = true

node_compat = true

node_compat = true

node_compat = true in my

wrangler.toml

wrangler.toml

wrangler.toml

wrangler.toml as well. Any ideas?

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ColinOP•10/16/23, 1:54 AM

^^ update, I figured out what this was. I'm connecting to an AWS RDS instance. We had our certificate set to

rds-ca-rsa2048-g1

rds-ca-rsa2048-g1

rds-ca-rsa2048-g1

rds-ca-rsa2048-g1, the issue fixed itself when changing back to the default

rds-ca-2019

rds-ca-2019

rds-ca-2019

rds-ca-2019 . Definitely a confusing error message (not sure if this is a

pg

pg

issue, or a Workers issue via the

connect

connect

connect

connect call), but hopefully this can help someone else!

CColin ^^ update, I figured out what this was. I'm connecting to an AWS RDS instance. W...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 10:12 AM

This is because Hyperdrive doesn’t yet support custom CAs, and the “newer” AWS CA requires the client (Hyperdrive) to have it in its trust store.

CColin ^^ update, I figured out what this was. I'm connecting to an AWS RDS instance. W...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 2:02 PM

For clarity, after re-reading your message: this is via Hyperdrive, right? Not just

connect()

connect()

connect()

connect() directly?

MMatt Silverlock This is because Hyperdrive doesn’t yet support custom CAs, and the “newer” AWS C...

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ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:05 PM

I'm a little bit confused here. The docs do call out custom CA certs, but the default mode in

pg

pg

(not sure what Hyperdrive->AWS is using) doesn't verify certificates

MMatt Silverlock For clarity, after re-reading your message: this is via Hyperdrive, right? Not j...

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ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:05 PM

Correct.

connect()

connect()

connect()

connect() directly w/

sslmode=REQUIRE

sslmode=REQUIRE

sslmode=REQUIRE

sslmode=REQUIRE doesn't verify the certs, so it works as expected

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ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:05 PM

It's only when connecting via Hyperdrive, which I'm assuming is verify-ca or verify-full

CColin It's only when connecting via Hyperdrive, which I'm assuming is verify-ca or ver...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 2:06 PM

No, per the docs: Hyperdrive does not support those modes. We only support

require

require

require

require (and prefer, but we ultimately require TLS).

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:06 PM

and the “newer” AWS CA requires the client (Hyperdrive) to have it in its trust store.

I'm a little unsure what you meant by this bit then

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:06 PM

If we're only using

require

require

require

require wouldn't cert validation not take place?

CColin If we're only using `require` wouldn't cert validation not take place?

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 2:07 PM

Let's step back a second.

You are using Hyperdrive and having issues when using the
```
rds-ca-rsa2048-g1
```
rds-ca-rsa2048-g1
```
rds-ca-rsa2048-g1
```
rds-ca-rsa2048-g1
CA, correct?
When using the raw TCP
```
connect()
```
connect()
```
connect()
```
connect()
API without Hyperdrive you have no issues, correct?

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:08 PM

correct

CColin correct

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 2:10 PM

They both share the same egress/TLS path, so this is odd. We shouldn't be validating the cert.

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 2:10 PM

(We'll look into it)

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:11 PM

I should add there’s a little bit of fuzziness - I couldn’t immediately see results when changing the database CA, it took <=10m

CColin I should add there’s a little bit of fuzziness - I couldn’t _immediately_ see re...

M

Matt Silverlock•10/16/23, 2:11 PM

AWS says that changing the CA is not an immediate action

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:12 PM

I interpreted that in the context of it waiting for the next maintenance window (which we forced immediately), not that there’d be propagation delay

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:12 PM

But that is definitely possible

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:12 PM

and I’m only assuming the underlying issue is cert validation - the error message was very vague

Aalexrobinson @Colin if you can DM me your account ID (or hyperdrive ID), I'll try tracking do...

C

ColinOP•10/16/23, 2:20 PM

Sure thing, I added you

K

kian•10/16/23, 4:36 PM

On normal Workers it requires

node_compat

node_compat

node_compat

node_compat which is a set of polyfills (https://github.com/ionic-team/rollup-plugin-node-polyfills/) so I'm not sure if you'd be able to get that working alongside next-on-pages

K

kian•10/16/23, 4:38 PM

Different thing.

K

kian•10/16/23, 4:39 PM

The Pages team don't plan to add

node_compat

node_compat

node_compat

node_compat to Pages, maybe you can ask the next-on-pages team to add it to that framework.

hey y'all - wanted to ask if anyone had opinions regarding Neon w/ Neon's connection pooling vs Neon

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