I just spent some time really re-doingg my stick Balance Spring, and then set the F4 to 200/200 gain

I just spent some time really re-doingg my stick Balance Spring, and then set the F4 to 200/200 gain in-game and have a slight "Sticky" Damper and Inertia in the VPForce software, and it's was a lot smoother in freeflight than before. There's still some weirdness wobble in slight trim dives and I don't know if that's the F4 or me but overall a lot better for me.

Soy•5/24/24, 6:49 AM

I have a 24V 16.7A power supply from a 3d printer that i was throwing away would this be enough to power the 2 57blf03 motors or do i need something stronger?

SSoy I have a 24V 16.7A power supply from a 3d printer that i was throwing away would...

walmis•5/24/24, 6:54 AM

You could power 2 Rhinos with that

Wwalmis You could power 2 Rhinos with that 🙂

Red Magic•5/24/24, 8:45 AM

Word on MFGs?

VPforceBot•5/24/24, 9:07 AM

:package:

RHINO #0548 Has Shipped!

Aalanek2009 What's the estimate cost of the cheapest DYI full build?

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 9:17 AM

First and foremost we never DIY when the budget exceed what we can buy. That’s foolish. So let’s look at the real cost of a real Rhino. (800 euro or so with some tax, fees, duty, and then some shipping… so maybe let’s say 1000 to walk it in your door?)

Now let’s add the cost of a DIY unit and compare those to see if it’s a good option for you personally.

let’s take into account the base cost of the DIY motor kit from VPforce is like 300 euro so like 350 (after shipping).

Now let’s go ahead and start from that 350 and see our total costs.

The estimated cost of a DIY Rhino varies due to shipping and part availability by region but the best way to find out is to go to the GitHub page.

Open the Assembly page.

Go to page 2 and begin adding everything from the BOM into an Amazon “Wish list” or a “cart”. That helps keep it saved in one spot for you to look back at when needed.

“Just add all the belts and bits and bobs and screws and washers and knobs” until you’ve got it all down on a list.

From there you can cross check the prices from local places or online places like Digikey, etc.

Add that cost to the original 350 to get our total so far and move to the shell.

You can make the shell from anything you like.. There are CAD files if you want to fabricate it from aluminum or wood and there are STL for those who want to 3D print.

There are also some very very crafty individuals here who’s made near complete DIY set ups.

IF you have friends to help or maybe a family member with a 3d printer? Or even a maker space at a local university/etc? it’s going to be a lot easier to get this project started.

I’m guessing the price for DIY is under $600 (350 for motors, 70-100 at Amazon for parts, 50-100 for a power supply..)

BUT that assumes you can fabricate, 3d print, or create the shell…

IF you must buy a 3D printer and print it yourself..

That pushes the costs too high and it’s cheaper to Buy than DIY.

(UNLESS YOU WANTED A PRINTER ANYWAY)

SSoy I have a 24V 16.7A power supply from a 3d printer that i was throwing away would...

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 9:21 AM

Officially the DIY runs on 20v 9amp but within the software you can set it to your specific power supply so you’ll be golden!

SSup3rToc0!Yea I noticed, why is that??

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 9:25 AM

I think pre the days of FBW the assumption was that when a plane is under normal (in flight) conditions it’s actually super tail heavy at neutral stick and G forces make it worse.

So by adding an artificial forward stance it would be closer to a comfortable neutral while under load.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who was a Tomcat pilot but also maybe someone who worked maintenance side…

Man did those guys know some stuff about the birds

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 9:28 AM

Not sure if it’s for the same reasoning but the Blue Angles fly with an artificial pull bar set at 40lbs forward.

So those sticks are artificially held at 40lbs forward at all times (unlike the fleet models where they use the FBW computers… pretty sure the Blues have a modified FCS)

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 9:30 AM

Here’s a cool video where one of the captains explains it.

Super cool stuff to see inside the Echo with all the new screens and stuff

Anyway yeah… 40lbs forward. And stick sits in a stance similar to the F14 irl with that pull. Watch it and see it reposition itself.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3T3At0ksw0

YouTubeLiveAirShowTV

Look inside a Blue Angels F/A-18 Super Hornet cockpit!

Lt. Cary Rickoff, shows you the controls in a Blue Angels F/A-18 Super Hornet! See how slight modifications make the aircraft flown by the U.S. Navy's famous flight demonstration squadron able to perform precision maneuvers that place them within 18 inches of each other!

RELATED VIDEO:
Blue Angels full demonstration from NAS Oceana Air Show: ...

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 9:39 AM

Oh and I should also note:

I do not fly the Tomcat so I can’t help you hunt this specific issue or help with the software fixes that may exist BUT I know the growler/hornet so this is what made me think of why they did that to the F14 (before the days of true fly by wire tech).

Would love to hear from the maintenance or some engineer or some whatever about it… cool interesting stuff for sure

VPforceBot•5/24/24, 10:28 AM

:package:

RHINO #0550 Has Shipped!

TTouch_Of_Legend Oh and I should also note: I do not fly the Tomcat so I can’t help you hunt thi...

Sup3rToc0!•5/24/24, 12:16 PM

Thanks for the explanation! That makes a lot of sense now

TTouch_Of_Legend I think pre the days of FBW the assumption was that when a plane is under normal...

Red Magic•5/24/24, 1:03 PM

Idk about 14, but for normal fixed wing aircraft I think most CoGs are preferred more forward than aft. Makes the aircraft more naturally stable, and want to correct itself when stick released

VKNG•5/24/24, 1:45 PM

does anyone have a good link or tips for a good FFB setup for the F4 yet? i see a few posts here and there but was curious what the consensus was?

Khangirey•5/24/24, 3:37 PM

I haven't flown in a long time. Does the F4 module play well with the VPForce?

Virus•5/24/24, 3:44 PM

Guys is the bot off?

KKhangirey I haven't flown in a long time. Does the F4 module play well with the VPForce?

Touch_Of_Legend•5/24/24, 3:47 PM

Being a brand new release there are no universally agreed upon settings so far as I’ve seen.

It’s basically jump in and test it!

Happy flying!

CapnFlintOP•5/24/24, 3:50 PM

VPForce is working great, but the F4 has a new FFB/stick method that appears to be taking some time to dial in and get used to.

CCapnFlint I just spent some time really re-doingg my stick Balance Spring, and then set th...

mac22443506•5/24/24, 7:13 PM

So how did u setup in the telem software?(using the base jet profile or adapting an existing planes profile?)

Mmac22443506 So how did u setup in the telem software?(using the base jet profile or adapting...

CapnFlintOP•5/24/24, 10:34 PM

The balance spring is in the base VPForce software. I haven’t done TelemFFB yet

CCapnFlint The balance spring is in the base VPForce software. I haven’t done TelemFFB yet

mac22443506•5/25/24, 12:09 AM

Ok - but did u manage to get it working without the. Telem software?

Mmac22443506 Ok - but did u manage to get it working without the. Telem software?

Number481•5/25/24, 12:16 AM

What is it you are trying to accomplish?

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 1:46 AM

Just got done flying it for the first time. What an awesome experience and product

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 1:46 AM

There’s no going back from FFB once you’ve tried it.

oblongmushroom•5/25/24, 2:31 AM

how do i purchase the products?

Ooblongmushroom how do i purchase the products?

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 2:34 AM

Gotta get on the waiting list

Ooblongmushroom how do i purchase the products?

mechsicko•5/25/24, 3:12 AM

❓faq

WWhereNoLarkFlew There’s no going back from FFB once you’ve tried it.

Touch_Of_Legend•5/25/24, 10:49 AM

Facts… BIG FACTS

Finally took a test flight with her and she’s absolutely everything I wanted her to be plus some..

(And this was at 50% gain for testing…)

It’s seriously something special to watch the nose dip and react to the G force effects just like real life..

Feeling more and more pressure as you pull back on the stick or dive forwards and those G’s compress..

It’s the magic of software and set up and of course the Rhino that makes it all happen but that’s why the Rhino is the top dog imho.

The app and the config make the magic and the hardware of the Rhino bring the simulation closer to reality than it’s ever been.

I’ll echo again what you’ve said and add my own.

You cannot go back from FFB.

It’s an experience that burns into your memory and that’s impossible to ignore or to forget.

This was what it was like irl.. feeling the pressure of the stick or the balance of the yolk is a REAL feeling that up until now I didn’t think was possible for sim.

So yeah Thanks again to Walmis and Sub and 481 and everyone who helped bring this project to the masses.

Feels like I’m preaching to the choir here though because you guys already know

Touch_Of_Legend•5/25/24, 10:51 AM

That memory I describe is already burned into your minds so yeah… There is no going back from FFB.

TTouch_Of_Legend Facts… BIG FACTS Finally took a test flight with her and she’s absolutely every...

Lehmen•5/25/24, 12:15 PM

I'm mostly flying helicopters in DCS. When I hit the trim button for the first time and felt how stick unloaded shifting into the new center... I had read a lot about how it works, but feeling it was an eye-opener. To me, FFB is second only to VR, in how something can change sim experience.

Duchess ✈•5/25/24, 12:25 PM

Can you post your settings?

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 1:01 PM

I don’t know, i think FFB is more critical than VR IMO. My wife tried the FFB stick with the F-4 and she just flew around for 30 minutes with a smirk on her face. Didn’t get that reaction with VR

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 1:02 PM

Then again, I’ve never used high end VR with great visual clarity

LLehmen I'm mostly flying helicopters in DCS. When I hit the trim button for the first t...

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 1:05 PM

Yeah, I’m going have to check that out soon.

NNumber481 What is it you are trying to accomplish?

mac22443506•5/25/24, 2:20 PM

Objective was to get the rhino working with the f4 (out of the box it was really horrible for me and not really flyable) But managed to get the rhino working with the f4 and its absolutely amazing now(very smooth) - but I had to use a combination of people’s settings from the DCs forums for the base configuration software, other setting for the f4 special settings in game and someone else’s setting for the telem(they had tweaked the base DCs jet profile to get everything working ) now it works very well…

Mmac22443506 Objective was to get the rhino working with the f4 (out of the box it was really...

Touch_Of_Legend•5/25/24, 2:53 PM

Nice I’m interested in these settings! Want to share or post some screen shots when you get a chance.

Thanks!!

Duchess ✈•5/25/24, 3:11 PM

I am interested in those settings as well. For me, the pitch authority is way too great, I have calibrated multiple times and yet still have to fly around with full nose down trim. Roll feels really nice. I keep hearing how stable the aircraft is, but it is not for me... my settings must be completely bonkers as the aircraft is extremely touchy, a lot like the A-4 mod.

WhereNoLarkFlew•5/25/24, 4:04 PM

Care to share that? I’m interested in finding what most folks consider a ‘good’ profile

caesar•5/25/24, 7:09 PM

Checking in after 10+ years of looking into building my own FFB joystick; learned the trade of CNC aluminium milling and building CNC machine, C-programming, learned 3d printing etc, all to develop a good, solid FFB joystick. I have had many mechanical design iterations, but always hit a brick wall on the software side. This project/product seems to be rocksolid on the software side and quite impressive on the hardware side.

Always envisaged to design something that would be of interests by other fellow simmers, particularly heli pilots (trim is a very import control in the heli, particularly sims!). However during these 10+ years, I got a daughter, a house to build and a job to show up to. I am quite excited about this project, particularly the software side of things. However...I am also aware the torque could be considered a bit limiting, particularly used in conjuction with an extension bar.

My software skills are next to nothing compared to these projects, but mechanically I have learned a thing or 2 both from my personal projects as well as from my real life job.

My questions would be:

What would be the possibilities to tap into the controllers mounted to the stepper (technically servo's with feedback loop) and take off the raw inputs to motor/controller and send it to an outside controller to i.e.:

control JMC servo's (huge torque, self contained tunable PID), accepts step/dir / ethercat
SimpleFOC with outrunners to do away with cogging mechanically and much higher torque (i.e. like the FFBeast)

I am thinking out loud here but only reason I don't invest in this project yet is the limited amount of torque. I am keen to get around the 30+nm (I am aware the FFBeast allows for this, but is limited on the software side).

I can imagine though taken away the motor of the loop, might be problematic for the damping/springy feel though, but keen to discuss how a DIY can improve torque with VPForce software

Very keen to elevate it to next level!

Ccaesar Checking in after 10+ years of looking into building my own FFB joystick; learne...

walmis•5/25/24, 7:40 PM

The VPforce controllers are tightly integrated with the motor controllers for optimal performance, adding support for 3rd party motor controllers is not planned.

Secondly, many people confuse these with steppers due to NEMA form factor, but in fact these servos are 3 phase brushless.

Speaking of torque, 20+nm is doable with VPforce 86BLF04 servos and proper reduction. Those are chonky motors weighing 2.7kg each, driving up to 4.5-5Nm at the shaft

caesar•5/25/24, 7:55 PM

Hi Walmis,

First of all wanted to say, you've created something to be proud of. This project has lifted the FFB sim world to next level. I have a bit of experience in aviation and sims and it always has been a huge bug bear that cyclic/stick FFB has been the underdog in sim world. Particularly force trim release (and set) option for helicopters. That was actually the reason to start my journey to produce something myself.

Helicopters are relatively easy though; IRL force trim is artifical (hydraulic control operated helicopters); simple clock spring with a clutch to engage/disengage the spring and a trim motor reposition the stick/pedals/collective. No aerodynamic or g-force feedback in controls

I just skimmed through the DIY channel and read some of your documentation. I can see your motors are tightly embedded with the software/drivers and it would be difficult to separate in current design and was kind of expecting this would be difficult but was hoping otherwise. It currently is a well balanced and integrated system.

Next question :D:

What would be the possibility to cascade 2 motors on 1 channel. I see there is a RS-485 connection between the controller and driver board. Any thoughts the driver could drive 2 motors (2 addresses?), using the feedback of 1 motor, i.e. master/slave setup? Feedback/dampening feel would of course needed to be looked at as it is doubled etc

I realize these are not the kind of questions that can be solved over night, but as stated, very keen to see if somehow it would be possible to relatively easy boost the torque. I am just trying to brainstorm here.

You are right that the chonky boys produce quite a bit of torque, but looking at real life, 20nm is only the start!

Sorry, don't want to come across to slag you off, au contrair, but if I look at real life forces (I have done my testing) helicopters require quite a bit more to move through the force trim with 0.6m extension bar. That's why I am so keen to ask these questions.

Bob Bushman•5/26/24, 9:43 AM

First time it hits you in the nuts you will be fine with it not being 60 foot lbs on the grip.

BBob Bushman First time it hits you in the nuts you will be fine with it not being 60 foot lb...

Touch_Of_Legend•5/26/24, 9:51 AM

Unless thats what you’re into…

Kink shaming… from you of all people.

Gosh

Bob Bushman•5/26/24, 9:53 AM

I do know some people.

Its not a party until someone is chained up and hanging from the ceiling.

But that's for a very different discord.

BBob Bushman First time it hits you in the nuts you will be fine with it not being 60 foot lb...

Fr4Ged•5/26/24, 10:39 AM

mine sling shot forwards when I stuck the skids of the Huey into the ground a bit too much.
immediately decreased the effects after that

Fresh_Mint•5/26/24, 10:41 AM

Default value of decell effect should be lowered

Fresh_Mint•5/26/24, 10:41 AM

Lehmen•5/26/24, 10:42 AM

I'm not sure that 3D printed plastic gimbal can handle great forces for a very long. So, be careful what you wish for

Bob Bushman•5/26/24, 10:42 AM

Been readjusting the height and setup of mine so I could get a more comfortable position.
This did eventually wind up having it lower and closer so I load up the huey the other day and as I click fly it snaps back and whack me in the D.

I'm buying a left handed mouse so I can keep my right hand on the stick.

bert•5/26/24, 3:09 PM

Power supply question: What voltage should i set on my MeanWell LRS-350-24 using the adjustment? Lowest i can set it is 20.6V. Searching the discord i'm reading replies saying a 24V power supply is also fine. How does this affect the recommended Max PSU current setting of 7A? Can i turn it to 24V and get more forces before reaching max psu current?

I just spent some time really re-doingg my stick Balance Spring, and then set the F4 to 200/200 gain

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