Engineering takes time, and people have been asking quite often so dont be surprised when a question
Engineering takes time, and people have been asking quite often so dont be surprised when a question like that is unintentionally left unanswered
SI asked that like 6 month ago 
HSo I have just flown the f4 for for first time. Have to say the FFB by dcs is usually okay, the heatblur implementation in the F14 was very good once they fixed some issues. But this implementation in the F4 is just odd and a bit confusing.
I have turned the percentage option they have in the dcs special menu up to see the difference, as at a Takeoff/Approach speed there is little resistance so it's far too easy to overcorrect. Just to see the limit I set the FFB gain in the settings to 400% and on the ground the pitch force was very bizzar, none initially, then I applied some trim and it forced the stick full forwards.
I'm very confused as to what that's supposes to be simulating, because after Takeoff the forces reduced again to quite low, even at such a high gain.
My Rhino has the z extension on it so I do need a little bit more force but this is very odd.
I have turned the percentage option they have in the dcs special menu up to see the difference, as at a Takeoff/Approach speed there is little resistance so it's far too easy to overcorrect. Just to see the limit I set the FFB gain in the settings to 400% and on the ground the pitch force was very bizzar, none initially, then I applied some trim and it forced the stick full forwards.
I'm very confused as to what that's supposes to be simulating, because after Takeoff the forces reduced again to quite low, even at such a high gain.
My Rhino has the z extension on it so I do need a little bit more force but this is very odd.
FYou aren't the only one that asked
FAlso I think it's only been like 3 months since the last update
FIf not less
SCan you point me to the last update? I haven’t seen it.
Ssearch 'mfg kit from:walmis'
SThanks, done and form filed
CIgnore anything the happens with the FFB and stick on the ground in the F4, it is a completely separate mode its in to not throw your stick forward.
First, make sure you update TelemFFB if you are using it or at least turn off the G effect because it interacts with HBs modeling of the bobweight and causes porpoising
Second, what I did was turn the F4 special options gains up to about 200% and I also added like 10% inertia and damping and 3% friction in VP configurator. These setting feel pretty decent so far.
That lack of feel when in the air at low speeds is just how that artifical pitch feel system works IRL, combined with the max force limitations of our hardware. Since the real plane can have 60lbs stick forces, when that is scaled to our 100% force on our rhinos that leaves the slow speed forces that IRL would be in the high single digits of LbsF to be almost unnoticeable on the rhino as set by default. There is a nice writeup on the ED forums about the nature of this issue with force graphs and all that I suggest you read through to understand how some settings could help you get the stick feel you want
First, make sure you update TelemFFB if you are using it or at least turn off the G effect because it interacts with HBs modeling of the bobweight and causes porpoising
Second, what I did was turn the F4 special options gains up to about 200% and I also added like 10% inertia and damping and 3% friction in VP configurator. These setting feel pretty decent so far.
That lack of feel when in the air at low speeds is just how that artifical pitch feel system works IRL, combined with the max force limitations of our hardware. Since the real plane can have 60lbs stick forces, when that is scaled to our 100% force on our rhinos that leaves the slow speed forces that IRL would be in the high single digits of LbsF to be almost unnoticeable on the rhino as set by default. There is a nice writeup on the ED forums about the nature of this issue with force graphs and all that I suggest you read through to understand how some settings could help you get the stick feel you want
Swhat about the pitch carlos? I feel it very sensible. always floating betwen +-4000' vvi...
CThe inertia, damping, and friction helped with the pitch feeling more real and stable. But other than that the f4 changes pitch with the bellows at different speeds so you always have to be trimming anyways, or just deal with the stick forces
HThanks, I was doing this testing without telem anyway. Heatblur tend to add enough effects to there aircraft for me not to need it. I don't alway like additional feelings that aren't always felt through the stick in reality.
While I understand that's how the controls are irl, if it doesn't scale to our hardware then there really should be an option to have a minimum force at low speeds. As otherwise ffb is basically off.
While I understand that's how the controls are irl, if it doesn't scale to our hardware then there really should be an option to have a minimum force at low speeds. As otherwise ffb is basically off.
CThat was one of the suggestions, Idk if that will end up getting implemented or if its possible
GG
NCurious for anyone else to try these settings... Gain map will cause the forces to ramp up quicker (meaning the force should be higher overall at slower speeds). Artificially increasing your calibrated Y axis range does sacrifice some throw, but acts as a saturation which decreases the overall sensitivity....
Seems to be working pretty well for me (but I'm probably not the best judge either )
Seems to be working pretty well for me (but I'm probably not the best judge either
)
HIll have a look the following days. Thanks a bunch for the suggestions! I’m still so horribly new to this so fucking around takes a while.
KI've done exactly that and Pitch axis is slightly less twitchy, thanks for the 
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V:package: 
RHINO #0554 Has Shipped!
RHINO #0554 Has Shipped!V:package: 
RHINO #0555 Has Shipped!
RHINO #0555 Has Shipped!HI'll try this later hopefully, sorry the image appears to be really compressed so can't make out any of the settings. I might be being daft as well but I thought those settings in vp force were overridden by the sim?
Nthe gain map is persistent.
DWith all due respect, the picture shows the design and 'engineering' are complete. The items are listed on the pre-order and appear to be fairly basic. The design is the real clever part using the excellent VPforce motor kit. Some indication of an estimated timeline to release would be appreciated. i.e Q3/Q4
SThe thing is that in the real thing the forces are low at low speed(pitch axis).
NYes, IRL the forces are much weaker at low speeds. But with HB's implementation, this effectively ends up with a virtually dead stick at low speeds with all things default. This is simply trying to maintain some semblance of centering force at lower speeds.
SShould the stick in the F4 move with the trim?
Only way I achieve this is with enabling hardware force trim. Don’t have to this in the Viggen or the F14.
Only way I achieve this is with enabling hardware force trim. Don’t have to this in the Viggen or the F14.
BHmm..my rhino moves with f4 pitch trim
RDoes it have difficulty centering when released?
Nto some extent yes, but I still maintain that their bobweight simulation is too sensitive around nominal 1G, or the aircraft G output is too twitchy, or both. Its the same issue the TelemFFB g-effect has on some aircraft that are very pitchy. Its not an easy problem to solve.
DThanks for all the suggestions guys. The plane is still just barely flyable with my Rhino. It has a constant and continuous pitch up that I have to counteract with full nose down trim, even then if I take my hand off the stick it pitches up. I have changed my settings to reflect some of the ones that have been suggested and the stick feels “better”, still not at all like a real plane, but as I have understood it, the F-4 has a particular artificial feel to it. Since it does not seem to be a problem with the HB software, I can only surmise that it is a problem either with my VPForce hardware or my software settings.
HFrom a look on the ED forums I see there is quite a bit of discussion about the FFB and get the impression that heatblur don't want to change it. But you are right, the bonus with the way telem handles things (and the way dcs really should) is that these effects are able to be tuned and tweaked.. Although I have a feeling that won't be done anytime soon.
The gforce effect in telem is definitely smooth in it's implementation, plus is can be turned down if it feels too rough. I certainly ended up pulling too much yesterday due to the g force effect reducing slightly and then increasing again
The gforce effect in telem is definitely smooth in it's implementation, plus is can be turned down if it feels too rough. I certainly ended up pulling too much yesterday due to the g force effect reducing slightly and then increasing again
SI inverted the Y axis in FFB settings in DCS and the trim works in the F4
S@walmis can we get a firmware update to add those virtual buttons on the Winwing F-16 stick soon pretty pleeeease? :funnyanimalsdog:
CI get the Spring Mapping force curve to get higher force at lower speed, but why did you do the +200 / -200 on your calibrated Y axis range?
CIs there a way in the VPForce software to set a minimum output force like has been suggested that Heatblur implement?
Nits a way of decreasing the saturation of the axis, similar to what you can do in DCS axis tuning, but without jacking up the FFB. It basically makes the physical throw of your axis only move the virtual axis %80 or so, decreasing the sensitivity overall. If you find you regularly need that last %20 of elevator throw, it may not be useful.
COh gotcha, that makes sense
CI guess setting the gain map like this would get me something similar to ramp up the minimum force earlier?
GIt shows compressed during visualization only (when clicking the image), use saving/downloading then open with another program, the image gets its real resolution and you can see all the settings 
RI understand why they wouldn't want to change it, or the forces between simulated and in the stick don't proportionally match
RAnd then that goes into the territory of giving false interpretations of aircraft handling. Similar to ppl with normal spring gimbals cranking axis curvature up
Banyone experiencing runaway left aileron trim?
HTrue, however they do allow the alteration of the gain, which when increased results in a disproportionate increase at the high end compared to the low. Would be much better if it was a linear increase and not an exponential one in my opinion
WFrom physics perspective the force (=dynamic pressure) increases with the square of the speed, so it's correct that it's non linear.
edit: Although the F-4 implements an artificial feel system and is not directly coupled with the control surfaces, that may not be the case (haven't read the docs about the F-4 control stuff yet)
edit: Although the F-4 implements an artificial feel system and is not directly coupled with the control surfaces, that may not be the case (haven't read the docs about the F-4 control stuff yet)
V:package: RHINO #0556 Has Shipped!
RHINO #0556 Has Shipped!V:package: 
RHINO #0557 Has Shipped!
RHINO #0557 Has Shipped!
BHas anybody here ever had the trim button being stuck? I've had it a few times now and can't quite figure out what is causing it. I'm using the TM F-18 grip and sometimes the trim seems to go to full deflection, usually just the roll trim but today I also had the same happen to the pitch trim. I checked my keybinds and there are no double bindings. Dcs control inputs isn't showing that the button is depressed so I'm not sure what's going on. Could it be a button issue? An issue with the Rhino maybe?
WWhich aircraft?
BAv8b
BBut I had some roll trim issues in the F5 as well