I love VR as well, the part that is way behind in VR is interacting with the cockpit. PointCtrl wor

I love VR as well, the part that is way behind in VR is interacting with the cockpit. PointCtrl works well with DCS, but there are no great options for MSFS or Xplane (other than the mouse which is ok, but not ideal)

Vulture•9/17/24, 4:21 PM

Right now the main problems with consumer VR is FOV and the need for really good pass-through (MR) to allow use in a sim pit and for checking documents, etc. Also the PC horsepower; it's not cheap! But military users are pushing those areas, and that will trickle down to us eventually. I actually did testing on an MR full fidelity Tornado simulator in Germany back in 1993 (!) and it was amazing, but crushingly uncomfortable and the graphics were, well, basic. And now I have it all (except for MR) at home.

Vulture•9/17/24, 4:23 PM

By the way I use a Quest Pro and with eyetracking and DFR it's amazing.

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 4:25 PM

I agree FOV could be better, I use the crystal and vertical fov is good, but I would love to have horizontal fov out to 180! That would also help the sense of speed perception quite a bit.

Hiob•9/17/24, 4:34 PM

I get all that, but for me to be sold, VR headsets need to become waaay more comfortable and the picture quality also needs improvement still. I‘m not saying it is bad, or that VR doesn’t have its perks, but it’s not there yet for me. Just personal preference - nothing to argue about.

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 4:41 PM

lol, not trying to convert you of course. I fly without VR occasionally as well just to avoid the mess. It's sometimes way easier for me to learn in 2D and then move to VR as well. I have VR, motion, FFB, buttkicker, haptic pad, and addons (Vaicom, necksafer, etc...) - I had to write a pretty lengthy powershell script to manage all of the software startup and remind me to check things along the way to get a consistent startup experience. It's honestly a mess to self support all of the integration points.

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 4:43 PM

...and then tuning anything is a multivariate problem with infinite combinations.... why do I do this again? lol

Hiob•9/17/24, 4:50 PM

yeah that’s another thing. If it gets too cumbersome, I catch myself staying on the couch even though I feel the urge to fly. I tend to simplify things instead of making them more difficult (well some exceptions like FFB obviously). For example I went down the rabbit hole of surround sound pretty deep before I realised that I actually don’t need more than a decent stereo setup, which is much cheaper, much easier to deal with and makes a nicer room.

Arno•9/17/24, 4:54 PM

But what is more cumbersome than doing a quick flight in VR, is going to an airport, opening up the hanger, fueling a plane, and getting going overall. Not to forget washing the thing when you are done....

AArno But what is more cumbersome than doing a quick flight in VR, is going to an airp...

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 4:55 PM

well that's true! although there is something to be said for actually touching the aircraft aluminum, smelling the jetA, talking to ATC, and feeling the plane come to life!

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 4:56 PM

we can sim all that, but it's not quite the same:)

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 4:57 PM

I used find myslef like hiob sometimes just not wanting to take on the effort, however, having a dedicated sim that is always set up and automating the startup so that it asks me what sim I want to fly, if I want to use VR, etc... and then everything justs starts up has helped a lot

Arno•9/17/24, 4:58 PM

I have flown planes big and small IRL, but one of the most immersive flights in VR is gliding. You are laser-focused from beginning to end on managing your flight and staying aloft. When you land and come to a standstill, you feel the same kind of satisfaction and release as in real life.

Sudeebare•9/17/24, 4:58 PM

Never try to talk someone into spending for something that they don't value.

Hiob•9/17/24, 5:51 PM

Oh, I do own a VR -headset. Not the fanciest by todays standards but okayish (Valve Index). I used it quite a lot with DCS, but it is shelved.

AArno I have flown planes big and small IRL, but one of the most immersive flights in ...

Vulture•9/17/24, 6:35 PM

Totally agree. I used to use Condor 2 a lot, and our gliding club has a 3-screen simpit for training on it, but lately I've been using the gliders in Aerofly FS4 and they are a blast in VR - much better FM than Condor IMO (but weather needs work). There is an Antares selflauncher that is just incredible.

Vulture•9/17/24, 6:38 PM

I find that simming (especially in VR) and actual flying complement each other nicely. At my age, it's important to keep current, and while I still fly a lot with my local club, over the winter I try to fly often to keep sharp. Always trying to make flights complete: Startup, TO, airwork, RTB and land. Bonus if there is a nice furball in the middle. The P-51 and Dora 9 make a pretty good standin for the Pawnee

Jj9murphy I love VR as well, the part that is way behind in VR is interacting with the coc...

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一五式艦上戦闘爆撃機Kyūden•9/17/24, 7:06 PM

just curious, for XP, is it a similar problem to MSFS(completed unusable natively), or is it just that the experience is not as good as in DCS?(The mouse cursor looks huge in XP VR.) I haven't tried it yet tho. I know MSFS uses a different way to project the mouse cursor in VR(or something like that) so PointCTRL cannot be used unless used with Fred's HTCC..

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 8:04 PM

XP seems to assume that you will use the hand controllers to fly, which I think is the worst choice. The mouse works but is somewhat clunky... you would think there would be a better way. too bad pointctrl doesnt work with all 3 as is.

Jj9murphy XP seems to assume that you will use the hand controllers to fly, which I think ...

一

一五式艦上戦闘爆撃機Kyūden•9/17/24, 8:13 PM

thx for the info. yeah interacting with the cockpit in a realistic way in VR is a huge issue yet to be addressed, totally agree with that. wish there could be a wearable vr controller with Otto swtiches and a high quality scroll wheel on it lol.

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 8:32 PM

I'm thinking about designing my own solution for XP and fs2020 along these lines. I already have a "knobster" and air manager so could incorporate that like in the video. It's not a great solution becuase I would rather interact directly with the cockpit in VR, but it does have some advantages over just using the mouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rrLKxNfKK0&list=PL7j2Vs5sY-W5oqKZb6_k2f5vQUeIKqJdv

YouTubeRuss Barlow

VR Mighty Mouse

A demo of a homebuilt :Super" Mouse to add functionality in VR flying. Twelve buttons that can assign simulator knob functions to the kneeboard mounted encoder or assign other sim functions to the buttons. Using an Arduino Nano programmed with Air Manager it is easy to build and a great addition to VR flying.

j9murphyOP•9/17/24, 8:33 PM

sorry for being way OT for this discord now...

Hammer 1-1•9/18/24, 2:40 AM

curious...is this the same Walmis that made the F-15 model for LOMAC all those years ago?

Hammer 1-1•9/18/24, 2:40 AM

if anyone remembers that era

Hhexpod Click to see attachment

Khangirey•9/18/24, 4:27 AM

did you ever get this fixed? I remember figuring out a fix

HHammer 1-1 curious...is this the same Walmis that made the F-15 model for LOMAC all those y...

walmis•9/18/24, 5:13 AM

Wow, someone remembered. Yeah that was me

Hammer 1-1•9/18/24, 5:32 AM

i kinda figured, remembered it when I first heard about your kit and thought it an odd coincidence

Hiob•9/18/24, 9:57 AM

@Vulture et al. Question to the Real World Pilots out there: Are V-speeds refering to true airspeed or indicated airspeed (ktas/kias)? Reason for question - the manual for the MSFS Black Square King Air states the following:

Hiob•9/18/24, 9:57 AM

- Maximum Cruising Speed 312 ktas

Hiob•9/18/24, 9:58 AM

- Economy Cruising Speed 234 ktas

Hiob•9/18/24, 9:58 AM

BUT V(ne) 263 kts?!

Hiob•9/18/24, 10:00 AM

I can't make sense of this (assuming the values are correct that is)

(

(41F) RAFAIR Dave H•9/18/24, 10:46 AM

VNE, the redline on the airspeed indicator, is an indicated airspeed, but the critical flutter speed may be a true airspeed. So the margin separating VNE from the critical flutter speed gets smaller as you gain altitude.

((41F) RAFAIR Dave H VNE, the redline on the airspeed indicator, is an indicated airspeed, but the cr...

Hiob•9/18/24, 10:51 AM

That's what I figured. Are all the other V's (flap retraction, gear retraction, turbulence penetration etc) also indicated Airspeeds then I assume? (I'm aware that the difference is marginal close to the ground)

Arno•9/18/24, 1:32 PM

Yes, they are usually aerodynamic speeds, and these are governed by the IAS. TAS has no bearing on aerodynamics (except mach effects)

mechsicko•9/18/24, 3:00 PM

VNE is based on true airspeed. It's usually determined by the flutter speed of the wings or some other lifting body. This leads to a service ceiling in ac called the 'coffin corner', since you can't fly slower than stall or faster than VNE and at some altitude those line converge since stall is airspeed and VNE is true

mechsicko•9/18/24, 3:02 PM

..For ac not limited by their propulsion that is

Mmechsicko VNE is based on true airspeed. It's usually determined by the flutter speed of t...

Hiob•9/18/24, 3:02 PM

That's the opposite of what @(41F) Dave H said and would render the given values in the manual without any sense.

Hiob•9/18/24, 3:03 PM

Again, I have no pilot training, just from logic I would assume that IAS makes more sense for a Vne

mechsicko•9/18/24, 3:11 PM

Aeroelastic flutter is a momentum thing so is based off TAS. For ac not limited by their engines (gliders for instance) you have to continually reduce IAS to keep from ripping off the wings as you increase in altitude.

AC like the U2/TR1 are examples of this regime of flying where at operational cieling they are teetering between stalling and ripping off the wings due to these converging lines on the flight polar. Can't fly slower than stall, IAS, but can't exceed TAS VNE w/out losing the craft

Mmechsicko Aeroelastic flutter is a momentum thing so is based off TAS. For ac not limited ...

Hiob•9/18/24, 3:19 PM

Thank you. I appreciate the explanation. However that doesn't help me for my specific question from above.

My question - more precisely - was, how can it be that the Vne is lower than the max. cruise speed, with the latter given in TAS and the former not specified?

mechsicko•9/18/24, 3:21 PM

Missed the first question.. no idea but it sounds wrong for VNE to be lower than any other recommended speed to fly

j9murphyOP•9/18/24, 3:23 PM

https://tailspinstales.blogspot.com/2009/11/vne-ias-tas-and-bvds.html#:~:text=Never%20Exceed%20Speed%20(Vne)%2C,an%20effect%20on%20your%20BVDs.

• Vne, IAS, TAS and BVDs

Flying adventures, aviation history, and aircraft flights written by those who experienced them first-hand.

Mmechsicko Missed the first question.. no idea but it sounds wrong for VNE to be lower tha...

Hiob•9/18/24, 3:23 PM

That would only make sense, if the Vne is given in IAS

(

(41F) RAFAIR Dave H•9/18/24, 3:32 PM

VNE is definitely ias as it’s the redline on the speed indicator which measures indicated airspeed , military ones also convert this to mach numbers as speed gets close to mach as mach is based on density altitude as well as true airspeed

mechsicko•9/18/24, 3:45 PM

I know what the redline on my airspeed indicator means and I also know that only applies to standard atmospheric conditions. The higher I go the more math is involved to figure out what my current IAS should read to keep from exceeding VNE. Many planes have a placard to remind pilots to take density altitude into account for this reason

HHiob That would only make sense, if the Vne is given in IAS

mechsicko•9/18/24, 3:47 PM

I think this might? answer your initial question https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/79284/how-can-the-cruise-speed-be-larger-than-vne

Aviation Stack Exchange

How can the cruise speed be larger than Vne?

I recently read the POH for a M20V, the advertising for this aircraft states that the top speed is 242 KIAS. The POH gives the Vne at 196/195 KCAL/KIAS.
I have found a similar discrepancy, the Vl3 ...

mechsicko•9/18/24, 4:09 PM

This being a complicated subject, there are probably a few right ansers because ac are so different from one to the next.

Hiob•9/18/24, 4:19 PM

Yeah. it dawns on me. What is so irritating to me is, that it is stated that the Vne needs to reduce with altitude. Which is exactly what IAS does inherently, but the key seems to be that Vne decreases more than IAS and therefore the Vne(ias) has to decrease even more than that……
my head is starting to hurt…..

buzzbomb•9/18/24, 4:38 PM

V speeds are aways given in KIAS aka indicated. Cruise speed is not a "V" speed per se and will often be expressed in Indicated or True depending on its intended use. You fly Indicated airspeed but you flight plan with true airspeed. If you look at the power charts for the King Air you will see torque, rpm, fuel flow, KIAS and KTAS for different pressure altitudes and temperatures. Now how VNE is determined depends on how the aircraft is certificated as high altitude and high airspeed aircraft use different formulas to determine it. This can lead to some strange results. Take the Duke and the turbine Duke for example. The VNE on the Turbine Duke is lower than the Piston Duke since it flies higher and was certificated under different standards requiring a different formula for VNE determination. essentially once you get over 25k VMO/MMO become dominate. I read the exact details how this is done a long time ago but cannot find the reference

Arno•9/18/24, 4:38 PM

I have never heard of Vne being dependent on altitude/TAS. It is a structural speed that depends on IAS. Your airplane will only be affected by the TAS when getting close to Mach 1, where the air stops being compressible. I don't think flutter characteristics change significantly with TAS/Altitude to warrant a different Vne. What is coffins corner is where you can't go faster in an airliner due to mach buffet , but can't go slower due to your AOA, minimum stall speed. That's where any turbulence will force you to dive down, which is not a good thing

I love VR as well, the part that is way behind in VR is interacting with the cockpit. PointCtrl wor

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