Does anyone have an idea what could be causing the joystick to tip forward in the H160? Both running

Does anyone have an idea what could be causing the joystick to tip forward in the H160?
Both running on Default TelemFFB presets, H145 B500, H160 B83, same settings, same control preset in MSFS
It doesnt occur with APs OFF

VPForce Rhino FFB Stick

h160: https://streamable.com/mky6lr
h145: https://streamable.com/jqc0d8

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Ttanr I've found issues with the Rhino on hubs that seem to be due to other devices on...

Dracks•11/9/24, 9:19 PM

Ok, thanks for your comments! I took the same actions as you and it's much better with fewer usb devices connected!

Wwestereq Does anyone have an idea what could be causing the joystick to tip forward in th...

Dracks•11/9/24, 9:29 PM

I had pretty much the same problem as you and I think @Number481 is on the case. Since the last TELEMFFB update I had HANDS ON with the default profile. Everything was working fine in the past. I was able to correct these odd elements by loading a profile from H145 which - itself - still worked. I changed all the names of my Airbus Hxx liveries (aircraft.cfg file) and associated all this with my old profile. Anyway, not necessarily your problem, but I have the impression that there's some weird behavior with these new updates.

Check out other liveries if you come across this (take liveries that aren't part of the hype, e.g. on flightsim.to).

Dracks•11/9/24, 9:31 PM

Maybe not your problem at all, but you can take a look at this and see if it helps.

sydost•11/9/24, 10:16 PM

Earlier there was discussion about F-14 control feel. These excerpts are from F-14D natops. Its for the D-model but I’d guess they didn’t change the control system between models. If I understand these correctly there shouldn’t be dynamic pitch forces that change according to speed. To me it seems that the module default spring effect, g-force effect and some damper to simulate the eddy current damper could be quite close to somewhat realistic feel.

f14billy•11/9/24, 10:46 PM

That's exactly what I based my settings on for the F-14

Wwestereq Does anyone have an idea what could be causing the joystick to tip forward in th...

Number481•11/10/24, 1:04 AM

See my post on the Hype discord... definitely something wonky with H160 B83

II/JG7_Moto Changing to a different uSB por solved the problem, but why did this happened?

Old Prospector•11/10/24, 1:38 AM

I had a problem with a certain USB device preventing the Rhino from being recognized (on any port). There was no indication either except for deep, deep within the system.

Trinity•11/10/24, 1:59 AM

My order says it's nearing completion but my order number is in the 1600s, did I do something wrong?

Ssydost Earlier there was discussion about F-14 control feel. These excerpts are from F-...

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:39 AM

@sydost That is a great find but totally proves the point that there SHOULD be an increased longitudinal (PITCH) dynamic force felt on the control stick under certain circumstances and it's all in one paragraph quite clear!

Extra forces should definitely be felt through the stick in 3 specific events and are artificially added to the F-14 control stick in real life

Event 1 normal Flight!

2.23.1.1 Longitudinal feel!
Paragraph one!

"A spring loaded cam and roller assembly produces break out forces when the stick is displaced from neutral trim position and provides increasing stick forces proportional to control stick displacement."

In other words if you pull on the stick you should feel the stick become harder and harder to pull against the further from the neutral trim position you try to pull the control stick. So a Dynamically increasing force is applied to the control stick of the F-14 the harder you pull on it. This is not related to pulling "G's" but simply a dynamically increasing force letting the pilot know how far he is from the neutral stick position during normal flight and this resistance would increase with the speed of the aircraft!

We currently DO NOT have this in the Rhino telemetry from DCS!

Event 2 Pulling G's

Following directly on from the previous sentence in the above documentation.

"Control stick forces proportional to normal acceleration (G Forces) and pitch acceleration are produced by fore and aft bob weights (similar in fashion to the F-4 Phantom) In other words the higher the G forces produced in a turn the harder the stick should be to pull against due to the influence of the bob weights fore and aft!!

This can be and is replicated by the G forces effect in Telem FFB software! and is the option being talked about by myself and @f14billy

Event 3 Sudden and dangerous large movements of the control stick!

Again continuing on from the last sentence in the paragraph 2.23.1.1 Longitudinal feel!

"Aircraft overstress's from abrupt stick inputs are minimised by an eddy current damper that resists large rapid control deflections!"

Currently not an effect we have from telemetry from DCS but I believe could be done using a Damper effect in the Config software and making it a sticky for the F-14 profile you use!

The entire description of how the F-14 should "feel" is in this entire paragraph.

The following is a quote from a real life retired RAF QFI that is currently my Flight instructor for DCS and has described to me personally what a pilot of any fast jet should feel realistically in flight.

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:39 AM

There DEFINITELY should be dynamic changing forces felt through the control stick by the pilot of any aircraft that has either direct mechanical or indirect hydraulically linked control of the flight control surfaces of any aircraft from the pilots control stick. Failure to have this in any Hydraulic only aircraft will create a situation where massive inputs are easily requested by the pilot through the control stick while the jet is at high speed/Mach that can be easily carried out by the hydraulic systems and these hydraulic controls do have the strength to overcome aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces of the aircraft!

Allowing these large inputs to be carried out without restriction at High speed/Mach on any aircraft at high speed/Mach would instantly cause complete structural failure of the aircraft due to the massive sudden aerodynamic and G-Forces that would be applied to the airframe as 2 things will happen. The Aircraft will simply Over-G due to the control surfaces forcing the aircraft to perform a faster than structurally capable (and more than likely human capable) manoeuvre causing structural failure due to excessive load in the aircraft.

Or number 2 the hydraulic forces push the control surfaces quickly out of the normal "allowable" aerodynamic flow over the aircraft, probably forcing a structural failure of that control surface due to the excess aerodynamic loading on that control surface forcing the aircraft into uncontrolled flight and probable complete loss of the aircraft!

Unless restrictions are placed on the pilots ability to make such fast and large stick inputs with the use of severely increased load forces as the speed of the jet increases nearly all planes that have mechanically or hydraulically assisted "help" for the pilot would have some sort of accident due to overstressing the airframe or control surface!

f14billy•11/10/24, 2:46 AM

If I understand correctly then new Gforce algorithm in telemffb takes into account gforce and stick displacement. It's not related to speed but it's closer to what you are wanting. Maybe in the future speed can be taken into account to fully replicate the real F14 behavior. In my case I prefer the simpler legacy Gforce implementation since it allows me to know how many Gs I'm pulling. Since I can't feel them it is very helpful for me in a dogfight even if it's not realistic.

f14billy•11/10/24, 2:47 AM

At high speeds I just try to be gentle with it to avoid overstressing the aircraft... Although sometimes I do it just for fun

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:49 AM

It is all down to personal preferance as to what "effects" are felt and how they are felt. I am going for as realistic as I can get with some extra that should be felt through the Airframe but putting it through the stick as my motion rig is not active at the moment!

Ff14billy At high speeds I just try to be gentle with it to avoid overstressing the aircra...

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:52 AM

Fun Fact it is impossible to Over-G the wings on an F-14! The test pilots found that as G and AOA increases on the F-14 the body of the aircraft starts acting as the lifting force and takes the G loading off the wings over about 7G and put the loading on the body of the F-14 which can easily take the extra load but did cause some cracking in the tail due to the angular stresses put on it which gave us the "STAPLE" that you may have seen in use on early F-14A's

f14billy•11/10/24, 2:54 AM

In DCS you can only break wings with a sudden high G onset. If you do it gradually they don't break. I use a fairly high amount of dampening to avoid that from happening accidentally with the rhino.

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:55 AM

In DCS if you slowly pull into a fast high G turn you will never rip the wing off it and can pull over 10G!

Ff14billy In DCS you can only break wings with a sudden high G onset. If you do it gradual...

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:55 AM

Great minds think alike lol

f14billy•11/10/24, 2:56 AM

Haha

NNemisis Wolf Fun Fact it is impossible to Over-G the wings on an F-14! The test pilots found ...

Hiob•11/10/24, 8:47 AM

And let‘s not forget that you need considerable power to pull that hard on the stick. The main reason so many people constantly rip the wings of some aircraft is that you essentially have unlimited „muscle“ power in a regular non-ffb setup.

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:19 PM

When I start calibrating from scratch, I have noticed my raw values prior calibration look like this. Y is significantly shifted down. Should I be concerned?

SShamansky When I start calibrating from scratch, I have noticed my raw values prior calibr...

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:42 PM

„prior“ to calibration? That is irrelevant. Do the calibration and all will (most likely) be good.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:43 PM

The raw values in the middle position should be in the proximity of ~2048 though. If they are too far off, it could lead to problems when the unit is powered on with the stick not in the center.

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:44 PM

yeah seems calibrated fine after, it is just that it states centre values should be around 2048, but mine is like 3000 in Y axis. Stick is centered though.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:45 PM

That is the result of applying the belt in the „wrong“ position (not really wrong, just not perfect). It will most likely be no problem though,

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:46 PM

Just wondering if I should be concerned and open it up and rotate motor assembly or something.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:46 PM

In case it becomes a problem just reapply the belt.

SShamansky Just wondering if I should be concerned and open it up and rotate motor assembly...

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:46 PM

No! No need.

Number481•11/10/24, 12:46 PM

as long as the extents are between 0 and 4096, that is all that matters. The center is irrelevant.

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:47 PM

Good info, thank you

SShamansky Good info, thank you

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:48 PM

basically you want to avoid that the unit fires up with the raw values in the negative regime.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:48 PM

Becomes more of a problem with pedals due to the bigger range of motion.

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:48 PM

These can be negative? Got it.
I have had mine nearly one year now and just wondering if there's any maintenance I should do.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:49 PM

Apart from re-tightening the belt? (and replacing it eventually)

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:49 PM

No, not much. Check for loosened screws and such….

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:50 PM

I could imagine, that eventually the bearings will wear out and need replacement, but that would make itself obvious…..

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:52 PM

Okay, will do. Is there a list maybe what screw heads are used or trial end error, I just don't want to wear their heads with incorrect driver?

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:52 PM

I seen tiny ones on the smaller wheels, hidden under belt.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:52 PM

Drive the bits with your fingers first and don’t use power tools. ..

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:53 PM

First of all. If you don’t experience any unwanted movement or noises, just leave it alone.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:53 PM

Never touch a running system. (unless you need to grease it, which you don’t)

SShamansky I seen tiny ones on the smaller wheels, hidden under belt.

Hiob•11/10/24, 12:56 PM

these are the grub screws that fixate the pulley on the motor axis. Don’t mess with them unless the pulley is loose on the axis. In that case, remove the belt, unscrew them completely, use loctide and retighten them again.

Shamansky•11/10/24, 12:59 PM

Despite fans being loud while I dogfight I didn't hear anything worrying. I had occasionally rumble but I pressed the emergency button and reduced effects and all was well after. I only use Spring on plus Damper on, and Static Force to 2-3% on X and Y to compensate for stick S curved extension and heavy metal grip.

Hiob•11/10/24, 1:01 PM

Use headphones!

Most real problems, you will probably rather feel than hear. Like something being loose. Eg, if the movement from left to right or up and down isn’t continuously smooth but bumpy in the middle (loose pulley!)

Shamansky•11/10/24, 1:07 PM

@Hiob appreciate your time to respond, really do, Yes I use overears headphones now, but must hear my children waking up so not always the option to have both over ears ^^

Shamansky•11/10/24, 1:08 PM

Last question, what are nominal temperatures under heavy use and what temperature is alarming?

SShamansky @Hiob appreciate your time to respond, really do, Yes I use overears headphones ...

Hiob•11/10/24, 1:49 PM

That really depends on the use case. You CAN bring the stick to its (thermal) knees with continuous 9G dogfighting no matter the cooling. However with normal average use it will only occasionally get to high temps (50-60) and immediately cool down again when the forces are relieved. It will settle around 40 C with normal room temps.

Hiob•11/10/24, 1:50 PM

It has self protection though. If it gets too hot it will start to reduce the max amps and in result the max forces will come down.

Hiob•11/10/24, 1:51 PM

With the new software option to control the fan, I would rather start the cooling early too have more wiggle room, but that is personal preference.

Nemisis Wolf•11/10/24, 2:38 PM

@Hiob Hi just got my Rhino a month ago and love it so much I'm going to be upgrading my MFG Crosswinds to FFB with your kit. Will use Kaltokri's kit and order a motor from Walmis. Can't wait to get the full effect as FFB stick on it's own seems like it's missing something

NNemisis Wolf @Hiob Hi just got my Rhino a month ago and love it so much I'm going to be upgr...

Hiob•11/10/24, 2:40 PM

Make sure you specify that the motor is for use with pedals when ordering. Makes things a little easier later!

Does anyone have an idea what could be causing the joystick to tip forward in the H160? Both running

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