MThnx, very excited about this project
WMy mission is to bring back FFB from the dead 
Athat's a pretty worthy mission as far as I'm concerned
PI'm interested in using the motor kit for a 737 control column in P3D/MSFS, the most important part for me is to be able to simulate trim adjustments accurately and the 'heavyness' of controls - is this currently supported by the software or is further development needed?
WI think it should be possible to simulate the "heaviness" using the inertia/damper/friction combination. Trim is also not a problem if the sim supports native FFB. I do not know how well P3D supports FFB, for MSFS, XPForce plugin should allow for pretty good FFB. The mechanics for the yoke should be interesting :) To summarize - out of the box experience should be pretty good and some improvements will be definitely possible to implement via firmware updates with your feedback.
Adid I understand correctly that the total cost of an operational unit would be closer to 1k€?
WThe motor kits are from 299€ to 439€, with mechanics it can come close to 1k definitely. The complete Rhino base is 799€ :)
Aand that doesn't include stick and power source?
W+ 180W power source
- grip
- grip
AI'm working on an article about controllers in the ~600€ range, but I'm going to also talk about the next step up and I'm very interested in FFB
PAre you aware if anyone has tested the motor kit with Prosim? controls communicate with Prosim and not directly with the sim, an interface may be needed to drive the motor kit. I assume that the software is for configuration only and doesn't need to be running?
AI might want to pick your brains at some point to make sure I get my facts straight
WSure thing
WNot yet, this endeavor is in quite an early stage. I'm planning to implement an API to directly send requested torques to the device. That will open up many capabilities to interface external software with the device.
Yeah, the GUI software is a configuration front end, all the processing is done in device firmware.
Yeah, the GUI software is a configuration front end, all the processing is done in device firmware.
HHi @walmis , first of all great job! Flight simmers community really needed a FFB device! Since I'm quite proficient in mechanics and electronic stuff, I'm very interested in buying the Kit. Can you please recap of what is included in the kit and how I can buy it?
Fi think those photos in the showcase tab show it all (scroll up). you'll get 2x modified motors (with implemented sensors) and the main controller
Hyes, I noticed there are two motors and a controller, but in another picture I see a different motor size... So was wondering if is there an option to order different types of motors...
WHi @eaf51_havebug ! Yes the motor pictures are featured in the showcase. The whole thing is plug and play, you only need to attach motors to your mechanics and calibrate axis range.
W
WHere are different specs for the motors according to manufacturer.
Wand the prices:
57BLF kit: 299€
86BLF03 kit: 399€
86BLF04 kit: 439€
57BLF kit: 299€
86BLF03 kit: 399€
86BLF04 kit: 439€
WThe kit includes: 2 motors, USB FFB controller, hook-up wires for quick start (you may need to lengthen them, etc to accommodate your design)
Hand i gues on the controller theres a connector for the Virpil Grip? (removed from the original base?)
WThere's a 5 pin JST XH connector on the board for TM, Virpil, WinWing grips
HPerfect, thank you. One more question: Are the axis sensors on motors contactless ? (no potentiometer?)
WDefinitely :)
Hsent you a PM
I@walmis hello!! Sent you a PM 
WHey! One sec
原What are the motors used in the Rhino Base? or all these options are available as an option as well?
W@7hoshino The Rhino uses the 57 type motors. A base with the larger motors is on my roadmap, but meanwhile the larger ones are available as a kit to anyone willing to build mechanics of their own.
原Roger. thx. looking forward to the bigger one
F@7hoshino don't underestimate the power of the 57ers
Awhat limits the torque so that continuous is 0.6 whereas peak is 1.6? Components overheating?
WMotor windings most likely - this parameter is from motor manufacturer. This is probably without any active cooling.
Awhat are the main wear and tear problems for ffb in general? For normal sticks I'm guessing springs and cam bearings and stuff like that, but what's the main worry for ffb?
AAlso if you want a lot of strength out of an FFB system, how much can reduction gearing help?
WI can't think of any actually, there are no wearing parts (Apart for the leather boot on the Rhino LOL). Bearings and motors should last a lifetime if driven within specs. A blown MOSFET could be one failure point, but that should not happen normally.
Gearing helps a lot, since it multiplies the torque directly - for example 5:1 gearing will generate 5Nm with 1Nm motor.
Gearing helps a lot, since it multiplies the torque directly - for example 5:1 gearing will generate 5Nm with 1Nm motor.
AGearing of course lowers the speed the stick can move itself, but does that have a meaningful effect when you're just trying to generate force right then and there?
Aas I mentioned I'm working on a review thing for ~600€ sticks and I have the vkb and winwing here with the virpil arriving next week
Ait's kind of scary looking at how small the cam plates and other parts are
AI know enough physics to get a bit sweaty when I look at a ~30cm lever pumping force into parts that are a few cm at best
AAlso are those motors brushless? My experience with brushless motors is from model planes and at least the early ones occasionally had problems with phasing if you so much as looked at them the wrong way, I suppose these ones are designed to take the rough handling
MI have had them all, and in the end i want friction force and damping to replicate control feel from real airframes, from low stick forces like the yak to hydraulic and up to eddy dampers used for qfeel in f18 etc, ony the tech in devices i the brunner or rhino can currently do this, and the brunner cant sustain peak force like the rhino
WThe stick movement speed is not an issue - since we are talking about 0.5-2 motor revolutions per stick range. Yeah motors are brushless, controlled by Field Oriented Control (FOC) with absolute position feedback (non-contact), so that is completely different drive strategy than RC stuff 
It provides smooth torque in any rotational position. Also I have implemented a magnetic cogging elimination algorithm, so it makes the motors response very smooth, without the magnetic "bumps" you can feel when turning an unpowered motor.
It provides smooth torque in any rotational position. Also I have implemented a magnetic cogging elimination algorithm, so it makes the motors response very smooth, without the magnetic "bumps" you can feel when turning an unpowered motor.Aok yeah that's interesting
Abtw did I understand correctly that Brunner don't use gearing? If so, why do you think that is?
WThey do
WI have a few pics
W
