DevHeads IoT Integration Server•15mo ago

I just wrote a long post bringing in historical examples of how previous technological revolutions w

I just wrote a long post bringing in historical examples of how previous technological revolutions were a bit sh*t to live through for the people that lost their jobs at the time but in every case has advanced humanity each time.
However discord said it was too long and refused to post it.

See the agricultural revolution, the Luddites, etc.

As I am typing on my phone, I am giving up and getting another glass of wine instead

MMing I just wrote a long post bringing in historical examples of how previous technol...

wafa_ath•10/15/24, 9:29 PM

It's sad Discord didn't let it go through, revolutions can be tough for those affected, (i didn't go through thinking if it's a good thing or not and if it's worth it) i think i will spend the night thinking about it now

, Enjoy your glass Sir!

DDtynin Hey guys, with the recent evolution in AI and Robotics what do y'all think? Sho...

ke7c2mi•10/15/24, 11:18 PM

Idealistically I like to think we can reduce our role as engineers to improving the "efficiency" of humanity through technology. We bring new capabilities, and make old capabilities cheaper and easier and more accessible.

If we do so well that not every person needs to work for us all to have a good standard of living, I see that as a good thing. (Note on this, if embedded got fully automated, I like to think I could still flash leds on my desk for fun)

The real problem there is social / political. Less work needed should just mean more time for frolicking

MMing I just wrote a long post bringing in historical examples of how previous technol...

Paul - SW Makers (WA)•10/16/24, 12:46 AM

Post it to Google Blogger, GitHub or another free website and give us a link?

EEdison_ngunjiri 1. By providing more training ,you can transfer human workforce to other roles....

Dtynin•10/16/24, 3:47 AM

While training and transitioning workers to other roles seems ideal, not every industry can accommodate displaced workers with new roles at scale. Also, government restrictions might slow down technological innovation. Can we truly say automation will supplement rather than replace when the trend suggests full automation is the goal? @Edison_ngunjiri

MMing I just wrote a long post bringing in historical examples of how previous technol...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 3:54 AM

It's easy to point to past revolutions and claim they advanced humanity, but they also caused immense social upheaval. The Luddites weren't just resisting change for the sake of it they saw firsthand the negative consequences for workers. Why should we assume this AI revolution will be any less disruptive or more humane?

DDtynin It's easy to point to past revolutions and claim they advanced humanity, but the...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 4:06 AM

All the revolutions turned out to be more humane than we ever thought, we live longer, healthier freeer lives because these things happened. Ofcourse there will be losers but ultimately when AI is finding breast cancer where a doctor would have missed it , life is good. Disruption is key remember it's not our world, it's the blind watchmakers world.

Wwafa_ath It's sad Discord didn't let it go through, revolutions can be tough for those af...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 4:07 AM

Revolutions indeed force society to adapt, but at what cost? While technological revolutions may eventually lead to positive outcomes, they tend to leave significant casualties in the form of lost jobs and livelihoods. Is it fair to ask current workers to endure these hardships just to benefit future generations

DDtynin Revolutions indeed force society to adapt, but at what cost? While technological...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 4:08 AM

Life isn't fair

ZZacckOsiemo All the revolutions turned out to be more humane than we ever thought, we live l...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 4:27 AM

You're right, @ZacckOsiemo, life isn't fair, but the question is, shouldn't we strive to make it a bit more equitable, especially when we have the power to shape technological changes? It’s not just about adapting or surviving these disruptions but finding ways to balance progress with human impact. Suppose we only focus on long-term gains while ignoring the immediate human cost, aren't we missing an opportunity to innovate in a way that benefits both current and future generations?

Kke7c2mi Idealistically I like to think we can reduce our role as engineers to improving ...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 4:37 AM

@ke7c2mi Reducing engineers to improve efficiency sounds more like a justification for prioritizing profit over people. If fewer people are needed, does that automatically lead to a higher standard of living for everyone, or just for those already benefiting from the technology? Less work may mean more time for frolicking but only for those who can afford it.

DDtynin @ke7c2mi Reducing engineers to improve efficiency sounds more like a justificati...

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 4:45 AM

Look , cutting engineers to boost efficiency sounds more like trading brains for profit. Yup, fewer people might get the job done faster, but who really gets to frolic with the extra free time? Probably not the ones left juggling more tasks. The real trick is making tech work for everyone not just the top dogs. Thoughts on how we keep that balance?

MMarvee Amasi Look , cutting engineers to boost efficiency sounds more like trading brains fo...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 4:50 AM

well...this is a valid stance tho...the idea should be making it work for everyone @Marvee Amasi I concur with this.
what's your pick @ke7c2mi on this?

DDtynin You're right, @ZacckOsiemo, life isn't fair, but the question is, shouldn't we s...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 4:53 AM

Not really, every advancement in history has been made because someone crazy was obsessed with something. We don't want an equitable world. We do want a justified one. It turns out hierachies of competency matter. All surgeons are equal until your parent needs surgery then you need the best one. So we should focus on long term gain not pyrrhic ones but long term none the less.

DDtynin You're right, @ZacckOsiemo, life isn't fair, but the question is, shouldn't we s...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 4:54 AM

Also if you see that the world is missing an opportunity to innovate ina way that benefits the pressent and the future, the onus is on you to bring that forward. I.e lets see you innovate that way.

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:09 AM

Yeah @ZacckOsiemo you are right cus obsession and competency drives real progress here tho and seriously no one is arguing against wanting the best when it matters most. But "justified" shouldnt mean only the elite benefit from innovation. The challenge is to ensure that as we push forward, we are not creating gaps that leave people behind. The innovation should lift us all

, not just a select few

MMarvee Amasi Yeah @ZacckOsiemo you are right cus obsession and competency drives real progres...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:11 AM

You are chatting on discord with people all over the world, technology is benefitting everyone. You want equality of opportunity not equality if outcome. If they are using it better to their benefit that's amazing, you can too.

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:15 AM

Life expectancy in the 1820s was 30 to 40 yrs, now it is in the 70s. That means since the industrial revolution life expectancy has doubled. Technology is not just for the elite, they just use it better, of course some of that comes down to having resources. But not so much of that, that its impossible for others.

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:17 AM

technology has opened the doors for a lot of people yes that's a fair point

, and it's true that we all have the opportunity to use it in different ways. I guess the key is making sure that those opportunities stay accessible, so people have the tools and support they need to use them to their full potential. It's not to be forcing equal outcomes, but more about ensuring that no one is left out of the race

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:18 AM

Well how do you think we can keep expanding access while encouraging innovation

MMarvee Amasi technology has opened the doors for a lot of people yes that's a fair point ✅, a...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:19 AM

No that's not how nature works, we simply can't take everyone. That's why choices exist, they can choose to participate in advancement or left behind. You can't force progress on people.

MMarvee Amasi Well how do you think we can keep expanding access while encouraging innovation

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:20 AM

this is moot, access is prevalent. It's very very rare to find people who dont have access to choose the hard work in order to progress. Like Charlie Munger said,

All of us know what we need to do, only 1% will do it though

All of us know what we need to do, only 1% will do it though

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:21 AM

the real win is giving more people the option to participate in that advancement if they want to. It's not about carrying everyone forward , just making sure that the door stays open for those ready to walk through it

MMarvee Amasi the real win is giving more people the option to participate in that advancement...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:21 AM

The doors have never been closed.

ZZacckOsiemo Also if you see that the world is missing an opportunity to innovate ina way th...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 5:22 AM

well, I agree tho but then I tink we can aim to birth a future where competency and fairness aren't mutually exclusive, where we innovate in a way that benefits everyone, both now and for generations to come. What do you tink?

ZZacckOsiemo The doors have never been closed.

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:23 AM

Hmm , this talk is getting interesting

DDtynin well, I agree tho but then I tink we can aim to birth a future where competency ...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:23 AM

The more competent you are, the fairer the world will be to you. That world already exists.

ZZacckOsiemo The more competent you are, the fairer the world will be to you. That world alre...

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:24 AM

it feels like there’s more to the story

MMarvee Amasi it feels like there’s more to the story

Dtynin•10/16/24, 5:26 AM

Obviously there is

ZZacckOsiemo The more competent you are, the fairer the world will be to you. That world alre...

Dtynin•10/16/24, 5:27 AM

So true tho ...we move

MMarvee Amasi it feels like there’s more to the story

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 5:27 AM

Don't feel, analyze. Remember you can feel anything at almost any time.

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:32 AM

some people face obstacles more than just skill level, prolly it's access to education or networks or resources

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:32 AM

And the world rewards competence, sure

Marvee Amasi•10/16/24, 5:33 AM

But it is clear that not everyone has the same starting point when it comes to getting there

ZZacckOsiemo Life expectancy in the 1820s was 30 to 40 yrs, now it is in the 70s. That means ...

MingOP•10/16/24, 5:53 AM

Life expectancy in the 1820s was 30 to 40

That is the statistic at birth
If you were lucky enough to survive the various illnesses and get to 15, you had about the same chance of reaching 70 as today.
It is the advances of medicine that means more of us are surviving to 15.

MMing > Life expectancy in the 1820s was 30 to 40 That is the statistic _at birth_ ...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 6:17 AM

Oh I see, however this still demonstrates the advancements aren't just for the elite.

ZZacckOsiemo Oh I see, however this still demonstrates the advancements aren't just for the e...

MingOP•10/16/24, 6:20 AM

That however is true. It takes time (far too long!) for benefits to trickle down to the masses.

That may be the one way to make this potential AI revolution ‘fairer’

MMing That however is true. It takes time (far too long!) for benefits to trickle down...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 6:27 AM

I agree it takes too long, on whether it should or should not I'm on the fence.

They promised me a better world with the advent of the smart phone especially with the open handset alliance, they promised me a better world with Virtual Reality and Augmented reality, they promised me a better world with decentralization and blockchain, they promised me a better world with covid and remote work. The world remained and still remains largely the same.

I am jaded as to how AI will be the magic bullet.

ZZacckOsiemo I agree it takes too long, on whether it should or should not I'm on the fence. ...

MingOP•10/16/24, 6:41 AM

While it is a ‘they’ it never will get better.
‘They’ are mainly interested in ‘them’. If it happens to benefit someone else, then that is a happy accident.

Social Media was meant to be the great leveler - letting the voice of the people be heard.
Well, we heard it and it turns out to be pictures of their cats!

MMing While it is a ‘they’ it never will get better. ‘They’ are mainly interested in ...

techielew•10/16/24, 6:45 AM

reach > grasp

MMing While it is a ‘they’ it never will get better. ‘They’ are mainly interested in ...

ZacckOsiemo•10/16/24, 6:50 AM

I guess it is time we get involved

MMing While it is a ‘they’ it never will get better. ‘They’ are mainly interested in ...

techielew•10/16/24, 6:59 AM

So, that's my queue to break in with the shameless self promotion—or rather, a meetup topic: open source.

How altruistic is a lot of open source tech these days? For example, Zephyr started as a commercial RTOS built by a company that was acquired by Wind River and then open-sourced under the name Rocket and then pushed to LF—but you better believe WR is interested in converting commercial Zephyr users to VxWorks or WR Linux.

Who are the progenitors and maintainers of Zephyr and other popular open-source technologies? Does it matter?

I'd like for this to be the topic of this week's OH meetup but would also like to hear the community's thoughts here.

techielew•10/16/24, 7:03 AM

At best, an open source technology is something that mainly benefitted someone and in some cases gained popularity through the happy accident of also benefitting others. Then marketers realized the power of the messaging and have spun up a largely rosy image of homebrew + counter-culture + cost savings + flexibility + self-reliance that it's hard not to get on board with.

MMarvee Amasi Look , cutting engineers to boost efficiency sounds more like trading brains fo...

ke7c2mi•10/16/24, 12:36 PM

You're missing something here

Things taking less time should lead to more free time and frolicking

You're actually mad that the structure of society is such that everyone needs a job, i.e. at money and capitalism

To me it is crazy to think we would keep "busy work" for the sake of it, so we can give people made up tokens..... maybe you need to take a step back to see it, but this is very crazy

ke7c2mi•10/16/24, 12:40 PM

To try and express this in a more concrete way, lets say for the sake of argument, it takes 100 hours of human labour to provide for 1000 people

We can see the % utilisation per person is 10% to maintain this. Lets say the rest of the utilisation is made up with frolicking. Society is 10% work, 90% frolick

Lets say we have an innovation, and now it only costs 50 hours to provide for 1000 people, now the % utilisation per person is 5%, and we are at 95% frolick

In your statement you claim that %frolick goes down as %utilisation goes down, but we can see that the natural effect in this system is that frolicking goes up with utilisation going down

So - go and find the mechanism that makes what you said true (and it IS true today) - and get very specifically mad at that bit