Hi Walmis I’ve got some loose plans for my MFG:s…but no point (expect dampening/variable spring etc

Hi Walmis

I’ve got some loose plans for my MFG:s…but no point (expect dampening/variable spring etc) if force trim doesn’t work. Currently for the Apache I’m using the FFB option for the cyclic, works really well

.
For the pedals I use “Pedals trimmer mode - Pedals without springs and FFB” option meaning the pedals are not affected by the Force Trim release etc => I have to hold them in the correct position against the spring which works but gets tiring after a while.

Just thinking out loud, if I buy another motor and USB Controller for the pedals could you arrange for the Cyclic USB Controller to tell the Pedals USB Controller to readjust the spring center based on buttons pressed on the cyclic?

So for the Apache it would be something like this:
I press the button assigned to Force Trim on the cyclic, this command gets sent via the Cyclic USB Controller to DCS via DirectX as normal and the spring is released.
Simultaneously a command is sent from the Cyclic USB Controller to the Pedals USB Controller to release the spring for the pedals.

When I release the Force Trim on the cyclic the command gets sent to DCS via the Cyclic USB Controller and the cyclic springs re-engage with a new center point. Simultaneously a command is sent from the Cyclic USB Controller to the Pedals USB Controller to reengage the spring at the current position.

Would probably be a good idea to have reset spring center option as well + bump trim options.

walmis•12/13/22, 1:09 PM

Yes, you will be able to bind the trim to the pedal controller using the "Loopback" grip option (It's a way to pass buttons from any controller in windows back to the FFB board)

walmis•12/13/22, 1:10 PM

walmis•12/13/22, 1:11 PM

New version in the works

William OakesOP•12/13/22, 1:19 PM

Oohhh….very nice.

I’m now thinking a little bit about the A10C yaw/rudder trim, which is an axis rather than a button…I guess that it wouldn’t be impossible have an axis as the loopback control in the future.......

WWilliam Oakes Oohhh….very nice.👍 I’m now thinking a little bit about the A10C yaw/rudder tr...

smitty•12/13/22, 3:07 PM

as far as i understand it (and i have nothing built yet so this is a guess) you wont need to use in-game trims anymore, you use the upcoming hardware trim, which moves the stick center, and that just acts like you are holding the stick in that position.

Ssmitty as far as i understand it (and i have nothing built yet so this is a guess) you...

walmis•12/13/22, 3:12 PM

Yep, that's exactly right

PPropeler3D No. There is no games with native pedals FFB.

mechsicko•12/13/22, 4:31 PM

Condor/2 has a checkbox for them in the UI, though not sure if it does anything

RRumpel I’d love to put a motor on my slaw viper rx’s. Are there DCS force feedbacks for...

原

原子力Hoshino•12/13/22, 9:31 PM

Do they have motorized collective in the real one tho? I'm only aware of that they use motors for the active (helo) flight controls on some really models..

JJayPi Hmm, I think you are right. When you fly a stall with a plane you have to pull h...

原

原子力Hoshino•12/13/22, 11:39 PM

@walmis I think it also depends on another factor: the static stability characteristic of the aircraft. Most aircraft has positive static stability especially for the small GA trainers, which has the tendency to return to its original attitude, bcz since the Center of Lift is behind the Center of Gravity, the increased lift caused by the increased AoA will give you a nose down effect that has to be countered with more back pressure(pulling back) on the yoke/stick.

And I'm not sure how much the weathervaning into the wind of the elevator will affect the force requested on the controls...Didn't pay much of attention to that part during the flight training, plus trims are used more or less during slow-flight and stall/spin practice...and, for the slow-flight, which is an ideal high stabled AoA flight condition, the plane is trimmed eventually and the only thing I remember is the controls are already sluggish by themselves due to the lower airspeed etc.
But it might be negligible comparing to the increased Lift you have to counter

One more thing tho, for the modern aircraft that equipped moves the control surfaces with hydraulic system, I'd guess they are held more firmly by the hydraulic pressure and being exempted from weathervaning; moreover, the trim system on these type plane is usually changing the angle of incidence of the entire stabilizer(i.e. moving it up and down as a whole) and the trimmed position is held by hydraulic brakes and might also by the jackscrew itself which is used to move the stabilizer, so that might neglect the weathervaning as well? even there is one.

Being away from ground school for quite a while and some of the knowledge is beyond those textbooks so pls correct me if I get it wrong

原

原子力Hoshino•12/14/22, 12:13 AM

Oh FBW of course is another story but it is worth mentioning that, it seems lots if not most of the modern hydraulically controlled aircraft also don't have the aerodynamic force feedback from the control surfaces.. they just use springs and dampers etc., just like the FBWers. No direct mechanical link, nor 2-way hydraulic. (Backdrive) Motors/actuators are used for AP as well as for trimming, and some FBWers uses backdrive motors to provide FFB tho.

原

原子力Hoshino•12/14/22, 12:19 AM

and for the weathervaning, it might be move the elevator flush(?) to the air flow but I doubt it would provide substantial nose up force. It might be able to relief a bit of force required to pitch up but I don't think it's significant enough to make it feels the opposite way, taking into account of the aforementioned huge amount of lift increasing you have to fight with.
Overall it feels hard(er?) to pull, especially for doing some deep stall/spin in the GA trainer

WWilliam Oakes Hi Walmis I’ve got some loose plans for my MFG:s…but no point (expect dampening...

Stoned Kakapo•12/14/22, 11:28 AM

If you get this MFG mod up and going, would you be willing to share your plans? I'd love to buy a motor after I get my rhino and modify my mfg like this

Wwalmis It would be an interesting challenge to make a generic aircraft mathematical mod...

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 11:32 AM

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA324124 This has formulas, specifications and feel of the forces you would feel for multiple different aircraft controls like what MudMover was talking about. I'm reading it now and im probably going to reference back to this a lot in my future projects.

DTIC

Stick and Feel System Design (Systemes de Restitution des Efforts a...

Since the earliest days of manned flight, designers have to sought to assist the pilot in the performance of tasks by using stick and feel systems to bring these tasks within the bounds of human physical capabilities. This volume describes stick and feel systems in two parts. Part one describes the technologies which have been developed througho...

WWilliam Oakes Hi Walmis I’ve got some loose plans for my MFG:s…but no point (expect dampening...

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 12:01 PM

Have you noticed for the Apache under special options when you select

INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)

INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)

Joystick Without Springs and FFB

Joystick Without Springs and FFB

options from the drop downs there is a speed limit to the input. I started flying with my stick and pedals on instant trim option since the day the Apache came out and I didn't realize that my controls where lagging until a few days ago I saw my friends controls and his where perfectly in sync so I had to do some investigation until I found that to fix this I had to choose the

Central Position Trimmer Mode

Central Position Trimmer Mode

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 12:10 PM

I thought that the Apache was just really hard to fly compared to other helicopter modules and it took me a while to get used to flying it like this.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 12:15 PM

Im still forced to fly with the lag on the pedals though because Joystick Without Springs and FFBJoystick Without Springs and FFB is the only option that doesn't trim my center since I use pedals with only damper

jubuttib•12/14/22, 12:23 PM

... HOLY SHIT.

jubuttib•12/14/22, 12:23 PM

I'd never noticed that!

jubuttib•12/14/22, 12:39 PM

And it's not even a subtle difference.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 12:55 PM

yeah its huge. I cant believe I suffered for so long. Everyone needs to know or this needs to be fixed asap

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 12:57 PM

also they need to fix the trimming response curvature for ffb users

Wwalmis There are a couple of arduino projects with FFB - one is Fino. Also there's the ...

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 1:13 PM

Thanks, cant wait to try out Fino

SSwiftVengeance yeah its huge. I cant believe I suffered for so long. Everyone needs to know or...

jubuttib•12/14/22, 2:26 PM

Yeah, responded with a video to a topic discussing this on the forums, which up until now had been listed as "Solved".

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/313711-cyclic-stick-deflection-rate-slower-than-actual-joystick/?do=findComment&comment=5106427

ED Forums

cyclic stick deflection rate slower than actual joystick.

For example, when the actual joystick deflects from max left to max right quickly, the cyclic stick in game just deflects from max left to max right slowly, not fully synced to the actual joystick. Is it intended, can I get rid of it? I prefer that they are synced, could give more controllability.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 2:28 PM

https://youtu.be/84KZf48ugVw

YouTubeMr. Simulator

apache test input speed limit

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 2:28 PM

I also have

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 2:30 PM

I will post

jubuttib•12/14/22, 2:53 PM

You might want to change the name, "input lag" is slightly different to the issue we're having here.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 3:01 PM

done

jubuttib•12/14/22, 3:01 PM

Thanks for bringing this up, really hoping it gets sorted.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 3:01 PM

same

jubuttib•12/14/22, 3:02 PM

I can't really go back to center trim from unsprung, but I tried it quickly and it was indeed way easier to handle.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 3:02 PM

im sure a lot of other pilots are a victim of this bug without realizing

Jjubuttib I can't really go back to center trim from unsprung, but I tried it quickly and ...

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 3:03 PM

sorry I don't understand what you mean

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 3:04 PM

are you using the "Joystick Without Springs and FFB" option?

jubuttib•12/14/22, 3:17 PM

Yes, I have a joystick that can be easily swapped between sprung and unsprung, and when flying helis I always go unsprung.

jubuttib•12/14/22, 3:17 PM

So the stick is almost never at the center.

jubuttib•12/14/22, 3:18 PM

The meaning was that I don't want to start using "center trim" option again, because I'd have to use springs while flying a helicopter. Really don't want that, so Apache is off the table for now.

Reed•12/14/22, 4:52 PM

Does this lag go away when you are holding the trim button while moving the cyclic?

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:04 PM

Jjubuttib The meaning was that I don't want to start using "center trim" option again, bec...

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:07 PM

wouldn't you be able to just ignore the trim button and leave it unbound?

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:08 PM

if the joystick is springless then means you don't even need trim at all and the center trim option works just fine without it.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:09 PM

unless your using spring pedals also with center trim

SSwiftVengeance wouldn't you be able to just ignore the trim button and leave it unbound?

jubuttib•12/14/22, 5:44 PM

That works fine on something like the Huey, but the Apache's autopilot/stability augmentation system will be fighting you all the time. Sometimes you need to tell the autopilot "hey, this is the attitude and heading I want to be holding", and the only way to do that is with the trim button. The trim button is also the only way to reset the autopilot channels when they get saturated.

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:54 PM

you dont have to use the trim up

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:54 PM

just trim left right and down

Jjubuttib That works fine on something like the Huey, but the Apache's autopilot/stability...

SwiftVengeance•12/14/22, 5:55 PM

trim up you can use for something else or leave it unbound. trim down resets the auto pilot, trim right engages alt hold and trim left engages att hold

TheLurk🌽•12/15/22, 1:39 AM

You still need to trim for scas sleeve centering else you run out of authority quick

TheLurk🌽•12/15/22, 1:40 AM

Specific for the Apache I should say

TheLurk🌽•12/15/22, 1:41 AM

If you don’t the system will fight you, keeping the trimmer pressed doesn’t work either since that just puts it into rate damping not full scas authority within its band

TheLurk🌽•12/15/22, 1:42 AM

Can just bump trim it to keep the sleeve around your stick position

Hi Walmis I’ve got some loose plans for my MFG:s…but no point (expect dampening/variable spring etc

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