I typically would have dev comingled with staging (maybe with an injected prefix if I'm worried abou

I typically would have dev comingled with staging (maybe with an injected prefix if I'm worried about name conflicts). Whether I do 1 or 2 would depend on the relationship between the keys. If it's the same logical service, I'd probably go with 1. If it's different logical services I'd go with #2. I distinguish a logical service from whether it lives in the same worker by the functionality it's accomplishing (e.g. if you know you have a service hiding within the code of another). In practice though, #1 is often the choice.

Tin Cap•7/12/23, 2:55 PM

Yeah, I'm leaning towards approach 1 for this use case. The data is used by the same service(s) and would get created/destroyed together.

Tin Cap•7/12/23, 2:56 PM

Kinda seems like KV stores are much like logical groupings of data. Keeping data isolated properly, rather than individual datatypes.

Bbeelzabub I typically would have dev comingled with staging (maybe with an injected prefix...

Tin Cap•7/12/23, 2:57 PM

I treat dev and staging differently because dev is a mix of dirty data. I put bad stuff into dev and nuke it all the time. Staging is at least attempting to be as clean as production.

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:45 PM

https://github.com/cloudflare/cloudflare-go/blob/master/workers_kv_example_test.go#L107

I think i'm having an issue to get the accont id, can it be to any domain?

GitHub

cloudflare-go/workers_kv_example_test.go at master · cloudflare/clo...

Go library for the Cloudflare v4 API. Contribute to cloudflare/cloudflare-go development by creating an account on GitHub.

Unsmart•7/12/23, 5:46 PM

Dont know what you mean? A domain doesnt have a different account id unless you are using multiple accounts?

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:48 PM

sorry if it was a silly question

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:48 PM

where do I het the account ID

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:48 PM

https://developers.cloudflare.com/fundamentals/get-started/basic-tasks/find-account-and-zone-ids/#:~:text=Log%20in%20to%20the%20Cloudflare,tasks%2C%20select%20Click%20to%20copy.

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:49 PM

as when I go to a domain, each one has a different account id

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:49 PM

but i don't see where else would that be

Unsmart•7/12/23, 5:51 PM

If they have different account ids then they are on different accounts so you would go to whichever account your KV is on

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:51 PM

gotcha, maybe that was the reason

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:51 PM

yeah that was the reason, i checked two differnt domains that have different owners

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:52 PM

thanks fir the help

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:53 PM

@Unsmart | Tech debt another one

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:54 PM

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 5:54 PM

doesn't have the WRITE permission

Sspillere - depinhub.io doesn't have the WRITE permission

Cyb3r-Jak3•7/12/23, 5:54 PM

Edit is the same as write

CCyb3r-Jak3 Edit is the same as write

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 6:20 PM

then when I use this key instead of the global one, it gives auth error

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 6:24 PM

but when i do the response curl it works, any idea?

spillere - depinhub.io•7/12/23, 6:33 PM

nvm, got it, it was a bearer token

zehawk•7/14/23, 9:05 AM

Whats the view on a series of writes to the same KV key, say just 1 seconds apart (eg a fussy user repeatedly tweaking and saving some config) and reading back? Is it guaranteed that the reads will show the same order as the writes in that region? Or a page full of settings / config, each of which autosaves into the same KV key when touched.
Further, would this be considered bad practice? I understand KV is meant for massive reads and occasional writes.

Zzehawk 1. Whats the view on a series of writes to the same KV key, say just 1 seconds a...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 1:17 PM

It may work in a lot of cases, but there's no guarantee because KV is eventually consistent.
The limit for writing to a single key is once per second. The system will error if you try to do it more frequently than that. While it's not a bad practice, if you have a lot of write volume overall (lots of different keys), we might start to rate throttle you (it's unlikely you'll be doing enough volume, but just keep that in mind).

Ssourabh.sashank Can I purge KV ?

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 1:21 PM

Not at this time, no. The system auto-purges on writes from upper tiers (https://blog.cloudflare.com/faster-workers-kv-architecture/). We've talked about it, but our current thinking is to work on exposing a tunable refreshTtlrefreshTtl parameter to

.get

.get

that lets you set a lower consistency value. However, there's a bunch of stuff we have to do under the hood to support that.

Bbeelzabub Not at this time, no. The system auto-purges on writes from upper tiers (https:/...

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 2:05 PM

Any plans to add a way to reset expiration when getting a value?

HHello, I’m Allie!Any plans to add a way to reset expiration when getting a value?

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 2:31 PM

What does this mean?

Bbeelzabub What does this mean?

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 2:33 PM

Some way of adding expirationexpiration/expirationTtlexpirationTtl to a get()get() call, so you could have, as an example, a key that expires 30 minutes after the last read

HHello, I’m Allie!Some way of adding `expiration`/`expirationTtl` to a `get()` call, so you could ...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 2:35 PM

Changing the expiration requires a write and having read operations secretly write isn't a good idea for multiple reasons.

Bbeelzabub Changing the expiration requires a write and having read operations secretly wri...

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 2:37 PM

No, I mean that it would be explicit, like get(“someKey”, {expirationTtl: 1800});get(“someKey”, {expirationTtl: 1800});. And it seems like overkill to have to rewrite a key every time to reset the expiration timer…

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 2:38 PM

So a get would never be implicitly be making any changes

HHello, I’m Allie!No, I mean that it would be explicit, like `get(“someKey”, {expirationTtl: 1800}...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 2:48 PM

From the perspective of the system, it boils down to a HTTP GET. That it internally has custom parameters to say "but actually do a write" doesn't matter so much - you're asking for a read operation to secretly mutate.

The challenge with such a proposal is that the entire point of GETs is to be cached & not hit the underlying storage. If you specify the expirationTtlexpirationTtl, that defeats the purpose since you need to hit the storage. And what happens if we fail to update the TTL is that an error? If yes, then we'd have to wait for the response from the storage & it's not cacheable. It would have to be no which means there's no way to signal to the user that we failed to update the TTL.

If you need this behavior today, you could do something like:

const value = await get("somKey")
ctx.waitUntil(put("somKey", value))

const value = await get("somKey")
ctx.waitUntil(put("somKey", value))

Of course this is race condition prone and would need conditional uploads (not implemented at this time) or mediation through something like a DO.

Bbeelzabub 1. It may work in a lot of cases, but there's no guarantee because KV is eventua...

zehawk•7/14/23, 3:22 PM

Got it. Is there any service in the Cloudflare offerings that can be used to create a debouncer in front of KV writes.

Zzehawk Got it. Is there any service in the Cloudflare offerings that can be used to cre...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 3:24 PM

Durable Objects. A common mechanism is to use DOs as the "ground truth" for storage operations & KV is the read path in front.

Bbeelzabub Durable Objects. A common mechanism is to use DOs as the "ground truth" for stor...

zehawk•7/14/23, 3:30 PM

Yup, I'm already using DOs for suitable use cases - multi-location sync / multi-user sync etc. But there's a lot of complexity etc involved with DO, whereas KV is very clean. So I'm wondering whether there is a way to debounce writes to KV. I though queues might be a way, but I dont suppose that would have such a feature either.

Zzehawk Yup, I'm already using DOs for suitable use cases - multi-location sync / multi-...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 3:31 PM

By debounce you mean to make sure the value is read/modify/write updated atomically in a safe way? Or something else

Bbeelzabub By debounce you mean to make sure the value is read/modify/write updated atomica...

zehawk•7/14/23, 3:41 PM

Just a simple way of reducing multiple writes to the same key to the last write once there is a pause. Eg
edit #1, save #1 - this produces a KV write
edit #2, save #2 - this produces a KV write
.
.
.
edit #5, save #5 - this produces a KV write, all within few seconds.
<pause>
A debouncer would just take the 5th KV write, since earlier superseded by #5. No read being done in this set of ops.

Zzehawk Just a simple way of reducing multiple writes to the same key to the last write ...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 6:33 PM

Ah. Queues is probably a nicer mechanism than DOs, although I don't believe it has any ordering guarantees which make things hard.

Unsmart•7/14/23, 6:38 PM

Queues also doesnt really have any state so it wouldnt know when the last write to a specific key happened to debounce it properly. DOs would realistically be the only option to debounce writes like that.

Would also limit you to writing 128KB values unless you used multiple DO keys to save the value and then do a list or something

Unsmart•7/14/23, 6:42 PM

If you are ok with the slight chance of losing some data I feel like the easiest option might be to just block the request until at least 1 second from the last write and if you have many requests come in a single second do a fake success return for the previous write and then only the latest value will be waiting for 1 second to then write to KV

zehawk•7/14/23, 7:02 PM

Certainly DO can be used - I'm already using it as a debouncer in some cases by setting and canceling+setting the alarm on each update, and the last set alarm will finally trigger. Thats how I handle a stream of actions generated within the DO, eg notifications. But was looking for a simpler more elegant way to do this with KV.

Zzehawk Certainly DO can be used - I'm already using it as a debouncer in some cases by ...

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 7:03 PM

Unfortunately not. You need to put a FIFO queue in front. Since queues doesn't yet have a FIFO mode, you'd need to roll it manually via a DO.

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 10:49 PM

@HardAtWork you maintain the BetterKV project, right?

Bbeelzabub @HardAtWork you maintain the BetterKV project, right?

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 10:53 PM

Yeah, I do

HHello, I’m Allie!Yeah, I do

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 10:53 PM

I think there's a performance issue. Do you want me to file a formal ticket on GitHub or just describe it briefly here?

Bbeelzabub I think there's a performance issue. Do you want me to file a formal ticket on G...

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 10:54 PM

Uh oh. You can send it here, then I’ll add it to GH and credit you there

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 10:54 PM

Or whichever way you prefer

Hello, I’m Allie!•7/14/23, 10:55 PM

I need to add formalizing contributions to Flareutils to my evergrowing todo list…

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 11:00 PM

Basically the cacheTTL you use for the fronting cache is the same as the cacheTTL for KV. This means that every time you read from KV it's a cold read whereas KV takes great pains to make sure that you never see cold reads for frequently accessed keys.

The latest version of the PR isn't building, but I'm working on docs providing guidance:
https://vlovich-kv-advanced-guide.cloudflare-docs-7ou.pages.dev/workers/learning/advanced-kv-guide/#avoid-hand-rolling-cache-in-front-of-workers-kv

I think a good change to BetterKV that follows the recommendation while cutting costs is:

Set the cache TTL in the fronting cache to ~40-50 seconds (regardless of the cacheTTL the user is requesting from KV).
Have 1% of cache hits do a KV.get anyway in a wait until (+ update your cache with the updated value & extend the 40-50 second deadline out further).

Advanced Workers KV Topics · Cloudflare Workers docs

This guide provides best practices for optimizing Workers KV latency as well as covering advanced tricks
that our customers sometimes employ for their …

beelzabubOP•7/14/23, 11:01 PM

Also, please add a note saying that the fronting cache is incompatible with future KV improvements to allow reducing the the refreshTTL < 60s.

I typically would have dev comingled with staging (maybe with an injected prefix if I'm worried abou

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