... @walmis my package arrived safe and sound yesterday and everything looks great. Gotta swap thos

...

@walmis my package arrived safe and sound yesterday and everything looks great. Gotta swap those diodes (or just remove them you say?) so I can use my 24psu I've been waiting years to use for a proper ff stick

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:08 PM

I don't have a ton of experience with the real deal, but it seemed to me that the 500gf switches provided way too little travel, no?
Also, the typical hat switch design has the switches acting as part of a class 2 lever, reducing their actuation force significantly.
It seemed like the switch I'm judging this off (from an f-4 trainer cockpit) had ~4-5x the travel.

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:09 PM

The hats on the WinWing came close in travel, but feel more like ministicks than real hat switches at times.

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:15 PM

I have an old Honeywell 4-way China hat from an old Huey Debolestis gave me that feels the way you describe. I think it's a period specific thing? ..same era as Phantom but modern ones have shorter throws.

All the 4.3mm tacts have pretty short throws by themselves but where they're located on the lever makes the hat throw much longer but reduces force considerably, which is why the common 260gf ones feel so soft. 500gf is still a bit light but much better feeling.

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:16 PM

Ah. That makes sense. I wonder if it would be possible to create a design that gangs up the switches in parallel so that you get 500+gf actuation at the grip?

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:17 PM

The Alps feel softer to me than the 260gf ones but also have super short shafts and throws on par with minsticks so kinda the worst of both worlds imo. Great for confined installations I suppose since they're compact

WWoodspeople Ah. That makes sense. I wonder if it would be possible to create a design that g...

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:17 PM

An interesting idea. Another would be to use some kind of elastomer to work against so your squeezing a rubber spring at the same time as the plunger to get more force. hmmm

Gator•5/10/22, 6:18 PM

If anyone is trying to do a direct drive setup I have tested the Planetary Gearbox below and it works. I went with the 10:1 version and @walmis standard motors. 10:1 is too much reduction. I would recommend the 5:1. I didn't notice much backlash, but they make a more expensive version that has less backlash. One note the shaft on VPforce motors is longer than the gear reduction input will accept. Just keep that in mind you will need a spacer or you can sandwich the motor and gearbox around a mounting plate like I did.
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/plm-series-planetary-gearbox-gear-ratio-10-1-backlash-30-arc-min-for-8mm-shaft-nema-23-stepper-motor-plm23-g10-d8

PLM Series Planetary Gearbox Gear Ratio 10:1 Backlash 30 arc-min fo...

This high-precision planetary gearbox is belong to PLM series gearbox, it with gear ratio 10:1 and a maximum 30arc-min backlash. Diffent with the PLE series' steel gears, PLM series' gears are made of powder metallurgy. It's an excellent choice for applications that require good accuracy but low cos

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:18 PM

neat! that looks great.

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:22 PM

Interesting. .5deg still sounds like too much backlash, at least for a full length stick though it's worth noting most light aircraft have a little to a lot of backlash in the controls irl. What's the arc-min rating of the higher end one?

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:23 PM

<= 15 arcmin is the lowest spec i can find on their site.

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:25 PM

15 arcmin ~= 1mm backlash w/ 250mm extension.

WWoodspeople 15 arcmin ~= 1mm backlash w/ 250mm extension.

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:29 PM

Heh was just calculating it for 300mm. Even at 30arcmin that's only 3mm which is still within the allowed slop spec'd in the maintenance manual of the glider I fly

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:29 PM

I'm lazy so i just drew two lines in cad and put an angle constraint ;)

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:30 PM

I'm lazier :p https://www.blocklayer.com/riserun.aspx

Gator•5/10/22, 6:32 PM

I'll put an indicator on the version I have when I get home and get an accurate measurement. I'm just using 3d printed arms on it right now (waiting for a broach to show up) and have a 24" cyclic extension. During use there is enough flex in the whole setup that the backlash was undetectable at the grip. Once the aluminum arms are done I will report back. The version below is rated at 3 or 5 Arcmin depending on ratio. I didn't want to wait for them to arrive from China.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001310958833.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.16.4efe4548zaGKXd

aliexpress.com

82.57US $ 32% OFF|Helical Gear Nema23 Planetary Gearbox High Precis...

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:40 PM

Not cheap but damn that's precise and I'm sure quite economical vs an American of German version of the same thing lol. For people with more money than space it seems like a great option vs belts. 10:1 doesn't seem unreasonable either, you lose 10% of the input torque for one but Walmis tested the system at 24:1 already with no adverse affects. Might make 'backdriving' the system misbehave though?

Another alternative for belt drive is 'shaft winding' where you drill a cross-hole in the drive shaft or hub and run a steel cable through it with 4-5 wraps either side of the hole before connecting to the final pulley. It's how Roland van Roy did his yoke as seen below. it's used irl too though, my boss at the motion platform place I used to work (E2M Technologies) worked on the Air Force 1 Blackhawk simulator and it was used on some of the axes there.

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:42 PM

Advantage of shaft winding vs belts is compactness and cost. You can use very small drive side which really reduces the overall size considerably by the time you get to the final

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:44 PM

I hadn't really been aware of shaft winding. does it also potentially counter the elasticity of belts? I assume you'd still need a tension system so some flex would be added.

WWoodspeople I hadn't really been aware of shaft winding. does it also potentially counter th...

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:46 PM

Sort of? Steel cable also has its own elasticity. You need *some kind of tensioning system though it doesn't need to be complicated, just something to get it close enough to final the tension by moving the motor like you would a belt system. Alternative to steel cable is Dyneema/Spectra etc which has much higher load caps per thickness than steel but only like 1% stretch (vs steel cable's 20%) @50% break strength

Gator•5/10/22, 6:47 PM

The shaft winding looks like a good idea to explore. 10:1 with my setup and power supply was more than enough for a cyclic setup. Once I have the aluminum arms done I will test the spring effects. I'm running ~5% on damper and 10% on friction at 50% total output. Holds perfectly in place and feels really good.

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 6:47 PM

The runs of these are very short though so even steel cable feels solid

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:48 PM

I guess it would depend on the size of the steel cable vs the size of the belt.

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 6:48 PM

Probably somewhat difficult to get an exact figure on that without going fairly in depth.

WWoodspeople Ah. That makes sense. I wonder if it would be possible to create a design that g...

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 7:07 PM

One more idea for increasing actuation forces on diy 4-ways is screwing the base of the hat-shaft to a flexural plate at the bottom of the housing similar to a force sensing stick base. Actuation force could be tailored by using thicker/thinner flexural plates to combine with the switch force. Would probably need a metal stem at that point but likely some long/thin standoffs could be used as shafts, like M1 size or something? Found M1.6x30mm (3mm od) which seems like it might be just right

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 7:12 PM

They come is square shaft too, which would be helpful for keeping the hats clocked correctly

Mmechsicko ... @walmis my package arrived safe and sound yesterday and everything looks gr...

walmis•5/10/22, 7:21 PM

Nice! I'd recommend replacing the diodes with SMAJ24 for good measure, but you can remove them altogether. When working with the PCB, do not remove the top encoder holder, It might throw the calibration off a bit when reassembling. I did desolder the diodes on a couple of boards by alternatingly heating the diode pads from both sides till it went off, so no hot air needed. BTW, your PSU doesn't have that pot to tune the voltage like the Meanwell PSUs usually have? you could tune that to 22-23V and it should be good to go without any modifications.

Wwalmis Nice! I'd recommend replacing the diodes with SMAJ24 for good measure, but you c...

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 7:31 PM

Awesome, thanks. No trim pot on my psu I'm afraid. I'm not 100% familiar with part number variations but are these suitable? I think the extra numbers/letters determine packaging form factor but I'm unsure https://www.ebay.com/itm/303141169542?hash=item46949f2986:g:PkYAAOSwwGxg3h~A

eBay

(31 PIECE LOT) SMAJ24A-E3/61, VISHAY, TVS DIODE 24V 38.9V DO214AC R...

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for (31 PIECE LOT) SMAJ24A-E3/61, VISHAY, TVS DIODE 24V 38.9V DO214AC RoHS at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

walmis•5/10/22, 7:32 PM

Yep, those will do

Mmechsicko One more idea for increasing actuation forces on diy 4-ways is screwing the bas...

Woodspeople•5/10/22, 7:41 PM

One potential issue with this approach is that it creates a pseudo-linear force curve, instead of the snap action, somewhat dampening the tactile feel. However, the last time I tried it was with low actuation force switches, so this effect may not be as big with 500gf switches.

WWoodspeople One potential issue with this approach is that it creates a pseudo-linear force ...

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 7:49 PM

This is what I was thinking as well. The tactile click on the 500gf is fairly prominent but too much additional force and it will be lost in the mix. Would require some r&d to find the right balance. I did a quote req for 3mm square 30mm standoffs.. if it's reasonable I'll have a go and report back

Wwalmis Yep, those will do

mechsickoOP•5/10/22, 7:50 PM

Cool thanks, picked up that lot of 31 so if you want some or know of someone else is in the same boat as me I'd be happy to share the extras, they're small enough to ship in a normal letter envelope so shipping is no problem

walmis•5/11/22, 10:44 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbVgBk28JVY

YouTubeValmantas Palikša

Quickie: Powering up the VPforce RHINO FFB

Contacts:
VPforce Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/Y7YmFGHbee
DCS Forums: https://forum.dcs.world/profile/1984-walmis/
Email: vp@vpforcecontrols.com

Firmware updates/software: https://vpforcecontrols.com/usb/rhino/

Wwalmis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbVgBk28JVY

sko•5/11/22, 6:55 PM

Sweet, hurry up already! i only have so much saliva i can spare before dehydration kicks in

Wwalmis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbVgBk28JVY

原

原子力Hoshino•5/12/22, 3:13 AM

"the erection knobs"

Flashgod_VR•5/13/22, 12:30 PM

first rhino let loose... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/968791124103790612/974647068238958592/IMG_20220513_141855.jpg

walmis•5/13/22, 2:15 PM

Internal structure of 86BLF motor. Nice chunky copper windings, lots of mass for heat absorption/dissipation - perfect for FFB

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 12:53 PM

Greetings all:

walmis•5/14/22, 12:54 PM

Greetings!

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 1:41 PM

I'm interested in creating a Huey simpit and have been seeking an acceptable FFB stick to use as a cyclic for years.

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 1:41 PM

The main thing I'm after is an acceptable "Force Trim" feature.

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 1:43 PM

Ideally I like to source a B8 grip but in it's absence I assume Virpil's "WarBRD" will be acceptable: https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-warbrd-grip.html

VPC WarBRD Grip

★ Perfect Match for the VPC WarBRD Base
★ Programmable LED Lighting
★ Available with Optional Lockable All-Metal Twist Axis Mechanism, or with a Fixed Grip Stock
★ Compatible with all VPC Bases
★ 10% Discount When Purchased with VPC Base (applied at checkout)

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 1:55 PM

Will all I need be your Rhino FFB base and this WarBRD grip, or are there other components that are also necessary?

walmis•5/14/22, 2:34 PM

If you get the Rhino base then only the grip is necessary. There's also motor kits that you can use to implement your own mechanics.

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 2:35 PM

Cool, I'll order the Rhino base then.

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 2:35 PM

Does it need AC power at all?

walmis•5/14/22, 2:36 PM

I can include a power supply, unless you have your own 19-24V 150-200W

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 2:37 PM

I don't have one, so if you could supply one that would be great.

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 2:38 PM

I live in Australia but will be able to get my own cable if you find the AU socket hard to source.

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 2:39 PM

I assume the power supply uses a standard "kettle" or "figure 8" cord, yeah?

Slartibartfast•5/14/22, 2:41 PM

I see you don't recommend using an extension. Is there any reason for that?

... @walmis my package arrived safe and sound yesterday and everything looks great. Gotta swap thos

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